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Japanese Jujutsu vs. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Jimmy Cerra, Jan 18, 2006.

  1. Jimmy Cerra Amateur Fighter

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    I grappled against two JJJ people so far - one a few months ago and another last week - and beat both soundly. Our experiences color our perceptions. I made this thread to confirm whether JJJ brown belts are indeed not as good as I originally thought. Those martial artists will have to work extra hard to impress me now. However, I understand your point. I'll defer my judgement on higher belts until I have more experience. P.S. Yes, I'm dorky. :p
     
  2. Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    My post was not as much towards you as it was towards the horn-blowers agreeing and giving less-detailed accounts of their experiences. But the bottom-line is if you fight a can you fight a can. It's like saying: yeah I kicked the monkey-shit out of this one dude the other night who said he was a Boxer, he wore gloves, had a gym bag, and mase a "sss, sss" sound every time he punched, thus, Boxing SUCKS.

    Not really. You want to find out how viable JJJ is as an Art seek out the best in the World at it. Unfortunately, JJJ is one of those Arts that has been duly watered-down over the years and very lost in translation in-terms of it's travels to America. Remember, this is the Art that Bruce Lee HATED in the 60's because people would have "no contact" competitions of traditional Karate, and Jiu Jitsu specifically.

    It's like all the Karate hate on this board, but I've seen Okinawan Karate-ka's who would wipe their ass with half the shit-talkers here.
     
  3. n1k Yellow Belt

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    Of course, JJJ got completely owned by Judo when the Japanese were deciding to select which one would be learned by their police force so there is definitely some validty to the argument that it isnt that good.

    (I do agree however that there is way too much trashing of arts without any real evidence going on these days)
     
  4. Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    That's how you back a point. Good show.
     
  5. physicaltherapy Blue Belt

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    Oh sorry...I completely forgot about the freaking West Coast!!! LOL!!! :redface:

    I meant that number just for the East Coast! I forget the West Coast is like the mecca of BJJ
     
  6. n1k Yellow Belt

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    Haha, yeah that's completely forgivable. I was just surprised at how strict your restrictions for being a legitimate blackbelt apparently were! I've never really done anything with BJJ outside of California so I dont really know how the community is in the rest of the united states.
     
  7. Japanese Jiu Jitsu IS Brazilian Jiu Jitsu buddy. THe difference is that JJJ was a true martial art (with finishing moves and sword defenses) and the the Gracies turned it into a sport like Judo.

    Japanse Jiu Jitsu never had a "sport" version of Jiu Jitsu. THat was a Gracie invention.

    And by the way, COunt Koma was a JUDO EXPERT, and he is the guy that taught them everything they know. Judo comes from JJJ.

    JJJ is the grand-father of BJJ people. It is VERY effective as a martial art, but less effective than BJJ as a MARTIAL SPORT.



     
  8. Jitsuman Orange Belt

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    No, not really.

    Original Japanese jujutsu was a battlefeild art meant for fighting armored opponents with weapons.

    BJJ in an unarmed martial art that stems from a particular style of Judo. (kodokan/Kosen, I believe)

    While it is true that Judo comes from JJJ, they are worlds apart in modern times, so far apart that comparison between the two is absurd.

    What is this "true martial art" stuff you speak of? People do martial arts for different reasons. Still though, best translated "martial art" means "fighting style used in military actions" (that's what 'martial' means)

    I assure you, no one these days is using "Traditional martial arts" in Iraq. They use bombs, guns, planes, etc. Hand to hand combat is something modern day soldiers know very little about. How do I know this? I train with a whole bunch of marines, army guys, even elite special forces. Hand to hand I'll beat em' every time. Give em' a rifle and I'll be dead in an instant from 100 meters away. Interestling enough the marines have added BJJ to their unarmed combat manual.

    "traditional martial arts" by definition are outdated, because no one uses that shit any more, hence it's not really "martial" at all.

    You should also know that the Gracies meant for BJJ to be used for self-defense/street fighting. Not for sport. As a matter of fact Helio and Rickson have both went on record complaining about the "sportification" of their art. They think it's the best style in the world for self-defense. They've said the same over and over. Feel free to disagree with them, that's not the point.

    Also, Count Koma (meaning count of combat) taught the gracies Judo. That much is true. What you obviously fail to understand is that the gracies took what they learned, and emphasised ground-fighting, thus changing both the focus, and the art itself. BJJ is ever-evolving, and 'modern' BJJ is worlds apart from what the Gracies originally taught. For example, at most modern BJJ schools, takedowns from wrestling are used more, and takedowns from Judo are used less. new subimssions and positions are invented every year. Helio never taught 'the twister' I assure you. And neither did count Koma.

    Despite your attempt at the "sport vs. street" argument, BJJ is seemingly more effective at BOTH, simply becasue most of what would be considered original japanese jujutsu has been lost. Simply practicing the art was made all but illegal in the late 1700, early 1800's, bet you didn't know that, eh?

    The schools that claim to teach 'original japanese jujutsu' quite simply dont. (sorry to break it to you)

    I'll take a BJJ fighter over a JJJ fighter 9 times out of 10, regardless of if it's on the street or in an octogon. BJJ guys just train harder, with full resistence.

    Most modern JJJ schools are McDojos, plain and simple.
     
  9. physicaltherapy Blue Belt

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    Yeah...I'm running the numbers in my head.....all the BJJ BB I can think of...which of course are all on the East Coast since I haven't done BJJ anywhere else.

    I'm like "yeah...can't be more than 50...I'll type 75 just to be on the safe side" :redface:
     
  10. physicaltherapy Blue Belt

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    How about this for a modern day equivalent...as Jitsuman points out:

    http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles.asp?n_id=3595

    Army picked up BJJ and not that "small circle" crap or camel toe style kung fu.

    Why?? because BJJ owns mutherfuckaaa!!!!!
     
  11. Jitsuman Orange Belt

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    durrrr!

    But BJJ is a sport!!! It would never work in real life!!!

    durr durrr fucking durrr
     
  12. Dave661 White Belt

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    He taught them Kosen Judo which you mentioned earlier, which is already a style that emphasised ground fighting compared to traditional Judo and JJ. Like I said earlier, there is a common misconception that the closed guard and half guard were invented by the Gracies, when instead it originated in Kosen Judo.
     
  13. Terrier Brown Belt

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    Haha you just reminded me - There was a guy came to our BJJ class who was a boxer and kept making that noise anytime he made a sudden movment when we rolled, dispite me telling him to try to keep his breating as calm as posisble. In the end I just got sick of being ignroed and tapped him a bunch of times.

    And before anyone starts i'm not saying he was a crap boxer or boxing sucks (infact I think boxing is great) - just that for some reason this guy was making those sounds when rolling BJJ and I thought it was pretty funny.

    Also on the subject of BJJ vs JJJ well my instructor is a JJJ black belt and a BJJ Blue belt (should be purple in most peoples opinions, but we have no blacks to promote anyone nearby) and he doesn't tend to have much good to say about JJJ when he talks about it.
     
  14. physicaltherapy Blue Belt

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    Ha! quoting myself......

    In the world of retardedness........if it was Wally Jay vs Helio

    I'd put my money on Helio :D
     
  15. Joey Guidice Green Belt Professional Fighter

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    Japanese Jiu Jitsu is NOT BJJ ,BJJ evolved from JJJ and now they are two separate entities.

    "you could stick your head up a butchers ass and get a good look at a T-bone but wouldn't you rather take the bulls word for it......no wait thats not right"
     
  16. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:JUJITSU_(AND_RIFLES)_in_an_agricultural_school.jpg

    Yeah, this Japanese Ju Jutsu class looks nothing like judo! Japanese Ju Jutsu has nothing to do with today's Judo and BJJ! (Dripping with Sarcasm...)

    Since there is obviously confusion on Sherdog about the origen of Judo, Japanese Juu Jutsu and Brazilian Ju Jutsu, why don't you clowns read this:

    JuuJutsu: Father of a large family of derivatives

    Because jujutsu is both so encompassing and has its origin hundreds of years ago, it has become the foundation for a variety of styles and derivations today. As each instructor incorporated new techniques and tactics to what was taught to him originally, he could codify and create his own ryu or school. Some of these schools modified the source material so much that they no longer considered themselves a breed of jujutsu. Modern judo is the classic example of an 'Sport' which was derived from jujutsu but is today distinct. Another layer removed, some popular arts had instructors who studied one of these jujutsu-derivatives and made their own derivative succeed in competition. This creates an extensive family of martial arts and sports which can trace their lineage to jujutsu in some part. Brazilian jiu-jitsu has dominated the TV grappling competitions, as the rules of such competions favours that style of grappling, and Brazilian Jiu-jitsu has furthered modern grappling onto new levels.

    Jujutsu (also jujitsu, ju jutsu, ju jitsu, or jiu jitsu; from the Japanese 柔術 jūjutsu "gentle/yielding/compliant Art") is a Japanese martial art that is principally based on standing grappling techniques. Although the art is most commonly associated with joint-locking and throws, it includes striking techniques as well. In fact, in addition to locks, throws, and sweeps, Jujutsu practitioners typically learn strikes, kicks, how to evade an attack, and how to receive throws or escape from joint-locking techniques by falling safely and "blending" to neutralize a technique's effect, as well as varying degress of groundfighting (wrestling).

    Traditionally, a Samurai would be trained in many different arts. These included not only Budo, the martial arts, but also such skills as horse-riding and swimming. The martial arts were often categorized narrowly; kenjutsu for sword-fencing, [naginata]]-jutsu for the glaive, and so on. In some such curricula, Jujutsu referred to empty-hand fighting only. In others, it was a system of unarmed methods of dealing with an enemy who was armed, together with methods of using minor weapons such as the jitte (truncheon; also called jutte), tanto (knife), and methods of using kakushi buki (hidden weapons), which included the ryofundo kusari (weighted chain) or the bankokuchoki (a type of knuckle-duster), and were used against both armed and unarmed opponents. Other terms were also used for such infighting systems, such as yawara-jutsu (which can also refer to the use of the pocket stick, called a yawara).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jujutsu
     
  17. They are NOT two separate entities. That is a fabrication because you have never practiced real Japanese JuJutsu. I lived in Japan for 3 years, and practiced both Judo and JuJutsu.

    Japanese JuJutsu guys are just as phenomenal on the ground as their BJJ counterparts. End of story. You don't know what you are talking about.

    And by the way, in Japan, there is NO SUCH THING AS "BRAZILIAN JUU JUTSU". THey just call it jujutsu, just like the Brazilians only call it "JiuJItsu" (and not "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu".)

    If the Brazlians and Japanese call it Jiu Jitsu and they respect their Japanese origens, why are there so many idiot American Sherdoggers that haven't a clue where JuJutsu comes from?

    Give the old school the props it deserves.
     
  18. Dave661 White Belt

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    This is an interesting site I just found about the history of JJ. It even has pictures and stuff. Link
     
  19. Joey Guidice Green Belt Professional Fighter

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    As far as i'm concerned they are two separate entities.....your mixing apples and oranges: they're both fruits but you dont make orange-sauce, know what i mean?

    i'm not saying that BJJ didn't originate from TJJ or JJJ all i'm saying is now they have evolved into two SEPERATE forms of maritals arts...thats all i'm saying.
     
  20. scotty1444 Orange Belt

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    could anyone tell me what is the most effective fighting style of getting out of submissions like sambo or bjj or ju-jitsu like escapes and when you reply could you tell me any good dvds which would show you submission escpaes so i cn be learnin while nt in the gym.
     

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