Japanese Catch

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TDubWurzo

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How much influence has BJJ had on Japanese catch wrestling? Catch is way more popular in Japan than it is in the U.S because of Pancrase, Shooto with great Catch wrestlers like Sakuraba and Iminari etc and now you are seeing some awsome Japanese BJJ guys like Aoki as well. Do the major gyms like Grabaka and Killer Bee train both? Has there been a big influence on their BJJ? Hopefully twenty years from now those two styles will be compeltly intergrated so that we will see guys who have leglocks and standing submissions along with gogplatas, omoplatas, triangles, gaurd work and a smoother ground game. I get frustrated when I see BJJ guys who don't like to go for the legs or catch wrestlers who can't fight from their backs. To me this should be MMAs next evolution.
 
Well, from the beginning, Masa Funaki was a guy who could fight off of his back and, if he had to, from the guard.

And this really shouldn't be surprising...remember, jujutsu and judo come from Japan...alot of Japanese students learn judo as a part of gym class the way Americans learn wrestling in PE...

Imanari is an example of a guy who may've come out of the catch-wrestling tradition, having originally trained in UFO (which was ran by Antonio Inoki) --and first learning submission-wrestling under Irie Hidetada and competing in the Combat Wrestling championships, then went on to get ahold of whatever he could grappling-wise.

His example is not uncommon; one of the most influential men in Japanese grappling, Yuki Nakai, is a man who of course is very familiar with catch-wrestling as an early Shooto participant and likewise is a BJJ blackbelt.
 
yea nakai was so impressed with rickson that he started to train bjj. funny how rickson outweighed nakai by a good 30lbs when they fought.. one bit of trivia for you. Who gave nakai his black belt?
 
Nakai was a Kosen judoka in the dojo of sensei Hirata before joining shooto.

A lot of pancrase and shooto guy were judoka ( Like Sanae Kikuta or Hayato Sakurai o Shynia Aoki)
 
PhxJudoJujitsu said:
I don't know of any current Japanese Catch/Shooto guys who are also BJJ guys.
Click to expand...

Shooto has loads of fighters from the Paraestra schools. I think that they would considered BJJ, wouldn't they?
 
PhxJudoJujitsu said:
I don't know of any current Japanese Catch/Shooto guys who are also BJJ guys.
Click to expand...

"are" doesnt mean that they are not influenced by it.

Their guards are stronger now than before the brassilians invaded shooto.
 
PhxJudoJujitsu said:
I don't know of any current Japanese Catch/Shooto guys who are also BJJ guys.
Click to expand...

Maybe not current but the Inoue Brothers and Genki Sudo were well versed in both arts.
 
krellik said:
"are" doesnt mean that they are not influenced by it.

Their guards are stronger now than before the brassilians invaded shooto.
Click to expand...


Once again, can you name ONE BJJ guys, or Catch guy who's said they adopted BJJ techniques for catch?
 
I read an interesting observation on a jiu jitsu blog that compared bjj and Japanese catch wrestling. The author suggested that the attack preference was opposite of each other. He wrote that if the bjj attack hierachy traditionally went like this:

1. chokes
2. armlocks
3. leg locks

Then Japanese catch wrestling tended to have the opposite preferences:

1. leg locks
2. armlocks
3. chokes

Cool. Here it is. From Machado black belt John Will. "Leglocks: Wherefore Art Thou?"

http://bjj-australia.blogspot.com/2007/01/leglocks-where-for-art-thou.html

"The reason is kind of obvious; the Brazilian fighters were about establishing upper body control on the opponent before going after the finish; whilst the Japanese fighters were more ‘target/opportunity’ oriented – looking to leap for a chance to finish rather than going for the control. When ‘target oriented’, the biggest most obvious targets are the legs (hard to hide) – so it makes sense to go after them, before arms, and after arms , before necks."
 
wOg said:
I read an interesting observation on a jiu jitsu blog that compared bjj and Japanese catch wrestling. The author suggested that the attack preference was opposite of each other. He wrote that if the bjj attack hierachy traditionally went like this:

1. chokes
2. armlocks
3. leg locks

Then Japanese catch wrestling tended to have the opposite preferences:

1. leg locks
2. armlocks
3. chokes

Cool. Here it is. From Machado black belt John Will. "Leglocks: Wherefore Art Thou?"

http://bjj-australia.blogspot.com/2007/01/leglocks-where-for-art-thou.html

"The reason is kind of obvious; the Brazilian fighters were about establishing upper body control on the opponent before going after the finish; whilst the Japanese fighters were more
Click to expand...
 
PhxJudoJujitsu said:
Once again, can you name ONE BJJ guys, or Catch guy who's said they adopted BJJ techniques for catch?
Click to expand...

Is it nescesary when the evidence is so clear? I mean who the fuck are a "catch" fighter anyway.
The mma scene is full of conflicting teams that really dont want to have nothing with eachother to do, not only the teams but also the "catch derived" organisations pancrase and shooto are mortal enemies. In this mess we have different gyms with different allegiances. Most of the grapplers in Japan in the early mma scene was "catch derived", they competed under a various amount of different styles "shooto", "shooto wrestling" "hybrid wrestling" etc etc. All of these have an obvious inclusion of catch wrestling for anyone that got an eye for what the art is about, obviously an indigenious mix of jjj and judo with catch and the prowrestling heritage as the dominating flavour. But no one of them really stands up and calls his style "Catch", some would for instance call themselves "hybrid wrestlers" but in the same breath trace their grappling lineage to Fujiwara and Gotch. But if we then have a situation where no one clearly stands up and raises their hands and says that they do "catch" how are I suposed to be able to pinpoint down an "active catchwrestler" who also have started to incorporate bjj in his training. I could say Yuki Nakai but he is not "active". He is however one of the largest (if not largest) legends of the shooto organisation and now he is propably the most prominent bjj authority in Japan as far as I know.
Its not realistic to narrow it down to the individual fighters in this case, but you have to look at the japanese fight scene as a whole and there it is obviously where we have gone from a time predating the ufc revolution and the bjj revolution where it was almost exclusively the "catch derived" various brands of grappling that dominated the scene, and from there there have been an obvious impact of the brassilian and western bjj based fighters wich obviously have set its mark on the japanese fightscene as a whole.
An random example is an article in the Swedish mag "fightermag" where they visited the fairly new deep gym. Its where Ryo Chonan and Imanari trains among others. Now Imanari should be imediately recognised as someone that fights in a style that is -clearly- catchderived with his insane focus on leglocks, perhaps not typical in every sense but its fucking Imanari we are talking about.;) Anyway there most popular classes was bjj.

So what are we debating, that the Japanese fightscene as a whole and that means the majority of the individual fighters have much better guards today compared to earlynineties and that is in majority an effect of the brassilian and bjj invasion of the japanese fightscene. You dont agree with this?

...longer post than intended lol...
 
krellik said:
Is it nescesary when the evidence is so clear? I mean who the fuck are a "catch" fighter anyway.
The mma scene is full of conflicting teams that really dont want to have nothing with eachother to do, not only the teams but also the "catch derived" organisations pancrase and shooto are mortal enemies. In this mess we have different gyms with different allegiances. Most of the grapplers in Japan in the early mma scene was "catch derived", they competed under a various amount of different styles "shooto", "shooto wrestling" "hybrid wrestling" etc etc. All of these have an obvious inclusion of catch wrestling for anyone that got an eye for what the art is about, obviously an indigenious mix of jjj and judo with catch and the prowrestling heritage as the dominating flavour. But no one of them really stands up and calls his style "Catch", some would for instance call themselves "hybrid wrestlers" but in the same breath trace their grappling lineage to Fujiwara and Gotch. But if we then have a situation where no one clearly stands up and raises their hands and says that they do "catch" how are I suposed to be able to pinpoint down an "active catchwrestler" who also have started to incorporate bjj in his training. I could say Yuki Nakai but he is not "active". He is however one of the largest (if not largest) legends of the shooto organisation and now he is propably the most prominent bjj authority in Japan as far as I know.
Its not realistic to narrow it down to the individual fighters in this case, but you have to look at the japanese fight scene as a whole and there it is obviously where we have gone from a time predating the ufc revolution and the bjj revolution where it was almost exclusively the "catch derived" various brands of grappling that dominated the scene, and from there there have been an obvious impact of the brassilian and western bjj based fighters wich obviously have set its mark on the japanese fightscene as a whole.
An random example is an article in the Swedish mag "fightermag" where they visited the fairly new deep gym. Its where Ryo Chonan and Imanari trains among others. Now Imanari should be imediately recognised as someone that fights in a style that is -clearly- catchderived with his insane focus on leglocks, perhaps not typical in every sense but its fucking Imanari we are talking about.;) Anyway there most popular classes was bjj.

So what are we debating, that the Japanese fightscene as a whole and that means the majority of the individual fighters have much better guards today compared to earlynineties and that is in majority an effect of the brassilian and bjj invasion of the japanese fightscene. You dont agree with this?

...longer post than intended lol...
Click to expand...


So bottom line your basing your opinion of of no evidence other than they use guard more, which is also a Judo/MMA proponent?
 
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