Jack Slack analyzes why traditional martial arts moves are coming back in the UFC

[AhuraMazda]

Who was the Greek who was challenged to arena combat by some renowned soldier, and arrived naked and oiled to out grapple his fully armored opponent?

Must be from greg jacksons camp.

 

[NeoNinjaFC]

That's a great point. People always wanna take a move and claim it for their style. Striking is striking, grappling is grappling, fighting is fighting. The same things exist in a lot of different arts. It comes off as really insecure to claim that was a shoulder lock from some art Jones has never trained and likely never heard of. I mean if Jones came out and talked about how he learned that move from someone with a background in the art I could see it, kind of like what happened with Longo and the whole limb destructions thing. But that's not what this is, he used a wrestling technique that happens to exist in other places so TMAs work guys!! There's a difference between tracing the lineage of a student (which is actually a useful exercise) and vainly using their fights to validate a style they know nothing about.

Fair enough but when we watch GSP display good punching skills what do people say: "he has good boxing" so boxing gets the credit for his all of his punching skills and technique? How is this any different than your example? GSP probably learned basic punching skills and defense and movement in other arts like Karate as well as by his boxing coach, but why does boxing get the credit. Chuck Liddell has a Kempo base and most of his punching skills and power were developed during his Kempo years, but does anyone say "Chuck has good Kempo punches". No, they say he has good "boxing". Why is that the western combat art is always favored in these instances? Yet people get upset when someone refers to a technique as being "TMAs". the double standard is hypocritical and ethnocentric in my opinion.

 

[a guy]

Fair enough but when we watch GSP display good punching skills what do people say: "he has good boxing" so boxing gets the credit for his all of his punching skills and technique? How is this any different than your example? GSP probably learned basic punching skills and defense and movement in other arts like Karate as well as by his boxing coach, but why does boxing get the credit. Chuck Liddell has a Kempo base and most of his punching skills and power were developed during his Kempo years, but does anyone say "Chuck has good Kempo punches". No, they say he has good "boxing". Why is that the western combat art is always favored in these instances? Yet people get upset when someone refers to a technique as being "TMAs". the double standard is hypocritical and ethnocentric in my opinion.

Because boxing doesn't actually just mean the sport, it means the skill set of using your hands. It's just like how all of the submission grappling arts get called simply grappling, any striking with your hands gets called boxing because that's an international sport that pretty much everyone understands. You don't say someone has good Kempo punches for the same reason you don't say someone has good punches, because punching is only one aspect of skill. Unless you want people to go around saying "GSP has a great skill set that allows him to use his hands in fights", people are gonna keep saying boxing. Kempo includes a lot more and has more crossover with other arts, so the term isn't as well suited to describing one specific skill set. He also doesn't strike at all like a Kempo fighter.

The thing you're misinterpreting is that there isn't an implication that GSP's skills had to have come from American boxing just because people say he has good boxing. No one is trying to discredit his original art, there just isn't a better term to describe his good boxing than saying "good boxing". It's also a little more complicated since being essentially the only striking sport that allows only the use of punching, the skill set in boxing is incredibly refined and streamlined. If you want to know the best way to move in different situations, the best way to generate power on a punch or to defend punches, you go to boxing. When you expand that to kick boxing or grappling, things become much more debatable because there are many different arts with different answers that vary due to their context. TKD kicks and MT kicks for example are very different in principle, but both can be effective. If you want to learn the best kicks in the world, that isn't really as clear as if you want to learn the best punches in the world. That's where the name comes in, so boxing is a poor example to prove your point. People don't say Pettis has good MT, they say he has good TKD (if they don't just say striking). People are very willing to give credit to the original art someone trained.

 

[NeoNinjaFC]

Because boxing doesn't actually just mean the sport, it means the skill set of using your hands. It's just like how all of the submission grappling arts get called simply grappling, any striking with your hands gets called boxing because that's an international sport that pretty much everyone understands. You don't say someone has good Kempo punches for the same reason you don't say someone has good punches, because punching is only one aspect of skill. Unless you want people to go around saying "GSP has a great skill set that allows him to use his hands in fights", people are gonna keep saying boxing. Kempo includes a lot more and has more crossover with other arts, so the term isn't as well suited to describing one specific skill set. He also doesn't strike at all like a Kempo fighter.

The thing you're misinterpreting is that there isn't an implication that GSP's skills had to have come from American boxing just because people say he has good boxing. No one is trying to discredit his original art, there just isn't a better term to describe his good boxing than saying "good boxing". It's also a little more complicated since being essentially the only striking sport that allows only the use of punching, the skill set in boxing is incredibly refined and streamlined. If you want to know the best way to move in different situations, the best way to generate power on a punch or to defend punches, you go to boxing. When you expand that to kick boxing or grappling, things become much more debatable because there are many different arts with different answers that vary due to their context. TKD kicks and MT kicks for example are very different in principle, but both can be effective. If you want to learn the best kicks in the world, that isn't really as clear as if you want to learn the best punches in the world. That's where the name comes in, so boxing is a poor example to prove your point. People don't say Pettis has good MT, they say he has good TKD (if they don't just say striking). People are very willing to give credit to the original art someone trained.

I still see it as a double standard, people are so quick to discredit TMA techniques from arts like Karate and TKD and glorify western combat arts like wrestling and boxing. Btw, GSP didn't train Kempo he trained in Kyokushin Karate and I see many similarities between his striking style and Kyokushin, more straight punches, footwork and darting in and out, if you watch Kyokushin tourneys it's not a bunch of guys working on Katas, it resembles full contact combat sports more than people think. Just because people watch TMA practitioners practice punches from the hip in horse stance they think when they actually fight they will fight like in their katas, the katas are used more as conditioning, practicing a full range of motion, combinations and form. Chuck Liddell was the one that used Kempo and if you watch his punching you will see that he doesn't punch or move like a boxer at all but rather he uses Kempo style punches and has even credited his punching skills to Kempo. Punching should be called punching or hand strikes, the term "boxing" to represent all hand/punching techniques came about as an enthnocentric terminology because in the west "boxing" was seen as the only practical and applicable form of punching/hand techniques.

I think you're also overrating boxing as the be all and end all of punching skills, in fact many of the punching/hand techniques in martial arts are more effective and specifically tailored for real combat than boxing, in real life and in MMA you don't have huge pillows on your hands to block punches and in real life combat there are no gloves/wraps at all. That's why many martial arts stress straight punches aimed with the first 2 knuckles since breaking your hands is a real possiblity without gloves/wraps, in a real situation where you are forced to fight breaking your hands can mean life or death. Bobbing and weaving is a technique in boxing that is not as practical in full contact striking due to the threat of knees and clinch.

The truth is that many are quick to discredit fighters original art, GSP for a long time was considered a wrestler/boxer, Chuck was considered a boxer, people don't say Pettis has good TKD, they say he has good striking, Bendo credits TKD for his kicking game but he is considered a wrestler. People are still quick to discredit TKD/Karate, etc. It's getting better now but I remember a time when if you even mentioned those arts you would get laughed out of the room and this is by MMA fans. It reeks of enthnocentric western bias and now because some guy said a certain move than Jon JOnes uses could be Japanese Jui Jitsu they go all apeshit and get all pissed because the move is used in wrestling too. When Chuck was using Kempo punching to KO people, if you even mentioned Kempo people would think you were crazy to be talking about Karate, that was considered the fake chinaman crap you only see in Jet Lee movies. The truth is there is a double standard and it won't change until people stop being so ethnocentric in their allegiance to certain combat systems.

 

[emax]

Cheers for posting guys.

Feel like the point got missed a bit. This wasn't "look, Jones is doing traditional Jujitsu", it was more that there's nothing new under the sun and then a little musing on factors that affected the development of various martial arts. The Jones reference was just to frame it, I wrote a full breakdown of the actual strategies Jones used to beat Glover last week.

With regard to wrestling, of course that's been around in India and Greece and everywhere else since the beginning of time. I mentioned at the end that in part two we're going to talk about competition and how that changes the techniques developed.

I was specifically wanting to look at how specific rulesets or lack thereof shape strategies. Like how popular kaiten geri or rolling kicks are in Kyokushin competition because of the lack of consequences for attempting them and so on.

Fair enough, but it seems like TMA moves are only a sort of icing on the cake when it comes to striking bases and not really viable when it comes to fundamental bases. Among those in MAM who have a TMA as one of their striking bases, there is KJ Noons, Lorennz Larkin, Court McGee, Tim Boetsch (counting Jeet Kune Do here),John Makdessi, Ryan Jimmo and Stephen Thompson. Tjhis is a long list and it is only a partial list of guys in TMAs who are not doing well in the UFC at all and getting badly outclassed by guys specializing in combinations of MT, boxing and wrestling.

And to the guy who said Andy Hug and other K-1 fighters would steamroll MMA guys in striking, I was wondering what is your take on why Overeem has become something of a bust in the UFC in light of that prediction.

 

[NeoNinjaFC]

Fair enough, but it seems like TMA moves are only a sort of icing on the cake when it comes to striking bases and not really viable when it comes to fundamental bases. Among those in MAM who have a TMA as one of their striking bases, there is KJ Noons, Lorennz Larkin, Court McGee, Tim Boetsch (counting Jeet Kune Do here),John Makdessi, Ryan Jimmo and Stephen Thompson. Tjhis is a long list and it is only a partial list of guys in TMAs who are not doing well in the UFC at all and getting badly outclassed by guys specializing in combinations of MT, boxing and wrestling.

And to the guy who said Andy Hug and other K-1 fighters would steamroll MMA guys in striking, I was wondering what is your take on why Overeem has become something of a bust in the UFC in light of that prediction.

GSP
Chuck Liddel
Anthony Pettis
Lyoto Machida
Anderson Silva
Benson Henderson

All figthers who credit TMA as their striking base. Yea, those guys all suck

 

[emax]

GSP
Chuck Liddel
Anthony Pettis
Lyoto Machida
Anderson Silva
Benson Henderson

All figthers who credit TMA as their striking base. Yea, those guys all suck

KJ Noons
Lorennz Larkin
Court McGee
Tim Boetsch (counting Jeet Kune Do here)
John Makdessi
Ryan Jimmo
Stephen Thompson
Louis Gaudinot
Robert Whittaker
Nam Phan
Cung Le
Jimi Manuwa
Uriah Hall

My list of guys who have relied more on TMA and have been underachievers in the UFC is quite a bit longer, I added some names and could have probably added more.

 

[a guy]

I still see it as a double standard, people are so quick to discredit TMA techniques from arts like Karate and TKD and glorify western combat arts like wrestling and boxing. Btw, GSP didn't train Kempo he trained in Kyokushin Karate and I see many similarities between his striking style and Kyokushin, more straight punches, footwork and darting in and out, if you watch Kyokushin tourneys it's not a bunch of guys working on Katas, it resembles full contact combat sports more than people think. Just because people watch TMA practitioners practice punches from the hip in horse stance they think when they actually fight they will fight like in their katas, the katas are used more as conditioning, practicing a full range of motion, combinations and form. Chuck Liddell was the one that used Kempo and if you watch his punching you will see that he doesn't punch or move like a boxer at all but rather he uses Kempo style punches and has even credited his punching skills to Kempo. Punching should be called punching or hand strikes, the term "boxing" to represent all hand/punching techniques came about as an enthnocentric terminology because in the west "boxing" was seen as the only practical and applicable form of punching/hand techniques.

I think you're also overrating boxing as the be all and end all of punching skills, in fact many of the punching/hand techniques in martial arts are more effective and specifically tailored for real combat than boxing, in real life and in MMA you don't have huge pillows on your hands to block punches and in real life combat there are no gloves/wraps at all. That's why many martial arts stress straight punches aimed with the first 2 knuckles since breaking your hands is a real possiblity without gloves/wraps, in a real situation where you are forced to fight breaking your hands can mean life or death. Bobbing and weaving is a technique in boxing that is not as practical in full contact striking due to the threat of knees and clinch.

The truth is that many are quick to discredit fighters original art, GSP for a long time was considered a wrestler/boxer, Chuck was considered a boxer, people don't say Pettis has good TKD, they say he has good striking, Bendo credits TKD for his kicking game but he is considered a wrestler. People are still quick to discredit TKD/Karate, etc. It's getting better now but I remember a time when if you even mentioned those arts you would get laughed out of the room and this is by MMA fans. It reeks of enthnocentric western bias and now because some guy said a certain move than Jon JOnes uses could be Japanese Jui Jitsu they go all apeshit and get all pissed because the move is used in wrestling too. When Chuck was using Kempo punching to KO people, if you even mentioned Kempo people would think you were crazy to be talking about Karate, that was considered the fake chinaman crap you only see in Jet Lee movies. The truth is there is a double standard and it won't change until people stop being so ethnocentric in their allegiance to certain combat systems.

My bad about GSP and Kempo, I got mixed up when typing that. Even still, he doesn't fight like any kyokushin guy I've seen. You can see the background in his kicks, but not in his stance or his use of the jab or his wrestling. His footwork is there too, but most of his success came with his jab and double leg. Hence, him being called a boxer and a wrestler. And no one said anything about katas or that being what people fight like. Liddell I could see looking more like it, but people talk about him having that as his background all the time. I don't know any boxer that wants to claim Chuck is a boxer, most of them hate his upper body positioning, the fact that he keeps his chin up, where he holds his arms and how much he got hit. And again, punching is only a small portion of boxing. There's the stance, the footwork, the weight shifting, the movement of the hip joints, measuring range, creating openings, positioning your body and manipulating your opponent's perception of distance and your position, head movement and then there's actually punching.

Again, boxing is the only art that incorporates only striking with the hands. That's why it's used to describe that specific skill set. Knowing how to punch is maybe 20% of boxing. Calling someone's boxing skills punching ignores the other 80%, which is why no one calls it that. Don't change the context of the discussion, we aren't talking about street fighting. We're talking about MMA. And again, if you only wanna focus on the punching techniques you're missing the bigger picture. Boxing absolutely has the best punching techniques, but more importantly it contains the best information on how to land those punches and not be hit in return. You won't find it to the same extent in any other martial art. Guys roll shots all the time in MMA, and saying you can't is one of the biggest myths in the sport. If a guy knows WHEN to roll, you aren't gonna be able to clinch him or knee him because he'll be rolling in response to a different attack you're already attempting. Guys roll and slip every single event, and not knowing how to is a huge liability. You don't go to karate to do that, just ask Machida. Also, boxing is always considered a western sport but it's more of a global sport. The best boxers in the world aren't even coming from the U.S. anymore. They're coming from Cuba and Eastern bloc countries. MMA is still a gloved sport and no good boxing trainer teaches blocking as their main method of defense anyway. I'm not saying boxing is the best striking art (though I believe boxing fundamentals provide the best base for any striker in MMA), just that it's the best for learning how to use your hands.

I really can't argue with this last paragraph because I get the impression you feel personally insulted by these things and I haven't had the same experience of people looking to discredit martial arts. Everyone I talk to appreciates Pettis, Silva's, Bendo's and whoever elses TKD skills. Everyone appreciates Machida's karate skills.

Remember, the issue is that people are claiming fighter's learned certain moves in arts they never studied. I can promise you there is no JJ coach at Jackson's. However, I can also promise you that there ARE boxing and wrestling coaches at tristar. You're belief is that saying these guys have good wrestling or boxing is the same as saying Jones is using JJ shoulder cranks. It doesn't hold up because GSP and Chuck actually did train wrestling and boxing (and saying they are good wrestlers and boxers only means they have good skills with their hands and takedowns anyway) but Jones never trained JJ. You're misunderstanding the use of the words. I'm sure there is some ethnocentrism in the fact that we use popular sports of our culture to describe skill sets, but there isn't really a better way to do it because there isn't another word to describe those things that most people will understand.

 

[emax]

My bad about GSP and Kempo, I got mixed up when typing that. Even still, he doesn't fight like any kyokushin guy I've seen. You can see the background in his kicks, but not in his stance or his use of the jab or his wrestling. His footwork is there too, but most of his success came with his jab and double leg. Hence, him being called a boxer and a wrestler. And no one said anything about katas or that being what people fight like. Liddell I could see looking more like it, but people talk about him having that as his background all the time. I don't know any boxer that wants to claim Chuck is a boxer, most of them hate his upper body positioning, the fact that he keeps his chin up, where he holds his arms and how much he got hit. And again, punching is only a small portion of boxing. There's the stance, the footwork, the weight shifting, the movement of the hip joints, measuring range, creating openings, positioning your body and manipulating your opponent's perception of distance and your position, head movement and then there's actually punching.

Again, boxing is the only art that incorporates only striking with the hands. That's why it's used to describe that specific skill set. Knowing how to punch is maybe 20% of boxing. Calling someone's boxing skills punching ignores the other 80%, which is why no one calls it that. Don't change the context of the discussion, we aren't talking about street fighting. We're talking about MMA. And again, if you only wanna focus on the punching techniques you're missing the bigger picture. Boxing absolutely has the best punching techniques, but more importantly it contains the best information on how to land those punches and not be hit in return. You won't find it to the same extent in any other martial art. Guys roll shots all the time in MMA, and saying you can't is one of the biggest myths in the sport. If a guy knows WHEN to roll, you aren't gonna be able to clinch him or knee him because he'll be rolling in response to a different attack you're already attempting. Guys roll and slip every single event, and not knowing how to is a huge liability. You don't go to karate to do that, just ask Machida. Also, boxing is always considered a western sport but it's more of a global sport. The best boxers in the world aren't even coming from the U.S. anymore. They're coming from Cuba and Eastern bloc countries. MMA is still a gloved sport and no good boxing trainer teaches blocking as their main method of defense anyway. I'm not saying boxing is the best striking art (though I believe boxing fundamentals provide the best base for any striker in MMA), just that it's the best for learning how to use your hands.

I really can't argue with this last paragraph because I get the impression you feel personally insulted by these things and I haven't had the same experience of people looking to discredit martial arts. Everyone I talk to appreciates Pettis, Silva's, Bendo's and whoever elses TKD skills. Everyone appreciates Machida's karate skills.

Remember, the issue is that people are claiming fighter's learned certain moves in arts they never studied. I can promise you there is no JJ coach at Jackson's. However, I can also promise you that there ARE boxing and wrestling coaches at tristar. You're belief is that saying these guys have good wrestling or boxing is the same as saying Jones is using JJ shoulder cranks. It doesn't hold up because GSP and Chuck actually did train wrestling and boxing (and saying they are good wrestlers and boxers only means they have good skills with their hands and takedowns anyway) but Jones never trained JJ. You're misunderstanding the use of the words. I'm sure there is some ethnocentrism in the fact that we use popular sports of our culture to describe skill sets, but there isn't really a better way to do it because there isn't another word to describe those things that most people will understand.

But isn't there also the fact that many kinds of TMA based styles have become obsolete in terms of how they would work today in the UFC? I don't think it would be possible to utilize Liddell's Kenpo based style or GSP's Koykushin based style and have any success in the UFC at all; the vast majority who have tried have failed spectacularly. I offered a partial list of TMA guys who have tried to use that type of base and are failures in the UFC a couple posts back. It seems the the fact that a few TMAs moves are making a comeback is trivial. Koykushin, Kenpo, TKD and kickboxing guys, at least in the US, don't seem to have the heart and grit and fighting spirit to make it in the UFC and rely on obsolete styles. The list I posted is proof of that.

 

[Megatronlee]

But isn't there also the fact that many kinds of TMA based styles have become obsolete in terms of how they would work today in the UFC? I don't think it would be possible to utilize Liddell's Kenpo based style or GSP's Koykushin based style and have any success in the UFC at all; the vast majority who have tried have failed spectacularly. I offered a partial list of TMA guys who have tried to use that type of base and are failures in the UFC a couple posts back. It seems the the fact that a few TMAs moves are making a comeback is trivial. Koykushin, Kenpo, TKD and kickboxing guys, at least in the US, don't seem to have the heart and grit and fighting spirit to make it in the UFC and rely on obsolete styles. The list I posted is proof of that.

wtf are you talking about heart? They just weren't good enough. TMA moves ARE making a comeback. Let that be it. WTF are you even talkin about?

 

[emax]

wtf are you talking about heart? They just weren't good enough. TMA moves ARE making a comeback. Let that be it. WTF are you even talkin about?

It seems they weren't good enough BECAUSE they trained in a so called TMA and not boxing or MT along with wrestling. That is the point. And so it makes it seem less relevant that a few TMA moves are being used periodically for a mere element of surprise. That does not change the fact that TMA is producing guys who are not as good at fighting and have less skill and heart than wrestling, Muay Thai and boxing. And so it makes little sense to read that much into the idea that a few TMA moves can be used for the element of surprise.

 

[JamezJitsu]

I think these moves are coming back because all the low-hanging fruit has already been plucked. Nowadays everyone has solid standup, clinch and ground, so in order to gain an edge fighters are looking to add lower-percentage techniques that opponents may not be expecting to face to their repertoire.

Damn you hit the nail on the head.

 

[robotsonic]

We all know boxing and wrestling most certainly weren't practiced thousands of years ago either.

Can I just point out to any more assclowns on here who want to contradict this post...it was sarcasm. Seriously, it's face smackingly obvious sarcasm and yet at least 5 dudes on here have been like 'WTF, dude you're wrong!!!'

Sherdog posters are so damn retarded sometimes.

 

[a guy]

But isn't there also the fact that many kinds of TMA based styles have become obsolete in terms of how they would work today in the UFC? I don't think it would be possible to utilize Liddell's Kenpo based style or GSP's Koykushin based style and have any success in the UFC at all; the vast majority who have tried have failed spectacularly. I offered a partial list of TMA guys who have tried to use that type of base and are failures in the UFC a couple posts back. It seems the the fact that a few TMAs moves are making a comeback is trivial. Koykushin, Kenpo, TKD and kickboxing guys, at least in the US, don't seem to have the heart and grit and fighting spirit to make it in the UFC and rely on obsolete styles. The list I posted is proof of that.

Liddell's biggest problem was he was too easy to hit. He kept his head in the same spot, stood too tall much of the time and developed a habit of leaping in with punches. When he was using his footwork to set traps, he was amazing. When he was on offense, he had great straight punches but wasn't that hard to hit. Machida has the same kind of concept behind his striking, and he shares the same weaknesses to some extend but he's much more cautious and measured so it's very difficult to capitalize. You could maybe argue that it would be obsolete but I'm not sure about that.

Keep in mind it's a grappler's sport. By far the largest source of talent is American wrestling. Top guys are coming over from grappling based sports while the same is not at all true for strikers. You don't have people with the equivalent resumes of Jacare, Maia, Cormier, Lombard, etc. from striking sports. The best karate and tkd guys are as far as I know not in the US, and not at all interested in competing in MMA. They have their own competition rule sets and don't care to switch sports. You're generally getting top grappling competitors against guys who wouldn't even be top 50 in their weight class in their own sports.

Your list doesn't prove anything honestly. And "failed spectacularly" is way inaccurate. You ignored that other poster's list of UFC CHAMPIONS because you have a preconceived idea and aren't interested in evidence to the contrary. Meanwhile your list is all guys who are at worst competitive with mid level UFC guys. Is that really failing spectacularly? Wonderboy has only lost to Matt Brown, and even then he nearly TKOd him several times. Makdessi is 12-3 with 8 knockouts, and his last loss was only due to inactivity and I think he won. Le is 9-2 despite being 41 and only sometimes focused on his MMA career. Manuwa's only loss is to fucking Gustafsson. Plus, again, you ignored a list of 6 tma based UFC champions. Those styles are far from obsolete. They need to be adapted, like literally every other base art (including wrestling, BJJ and ESPECIALLY MT) but they can produce effective fighters. Karate guys tend to have very good in-out feints and movement, phenomenal posture, great balance and speed. TKD guys have not only tricky kicks, but also tend to turn into the hardest kickers I've trained with when they learn more power oriented versions of kicks. And these are just gross generalizations, it changes depending on the individual.

TMAs are not obsolete. Especially the ones with legitimate training, not watered down americanized mcdojo versions.

 

[TheonGreyJoy**]

Yea better athletes with the same level of technique are going to beat worse athletes. That's not being disputed. What I disagree with is the idea that technique is going to be equal. There will be some fights where both guys are roughly as skilled but one is much more athletic and there will be some fights where both guys are great athletes but one has better technique/strategy. Ignoring either half of the equation, or saying one is the "differentiator" doesn't make sense. Look at a fight like Nog vs Mir 2. Nog was able to hold Mir against the fence and beat the shit out of him (before getting choked out), despite being smaller and almost definitely weaker. That's technique. Or Werdum vs Browne. Browne is supposed to be some sort of super athlete, and Werdum kicked his ass for 5 rounds. Joe Lauzon beat Melvin fucking Guillard.

Forrest vs Silva is a bad example anyway because the skill gap between the two is at least as large as the athleticism gap. Forrest is predictable and easy to hit on top of being slow and lacking power. He's also not a very intelligent fighter, he's always been more of a heart and will kind of guy. Silva is fast and smart as well as the best counter fighter in the sport and a master of drawing. Plus Forrest clearly doesn't know how to stand or how to position himself during/after punches, so that argument doesn't matter. He also isn't patient and doesn't work to throw off someone's timing. There's a big difference between the way he tried to move into range and the way someone like Weidman tried to move into range against Silva.

I really don't understand why people either have to be technique nerds or obsessed with athleticism. Both are extremely important, either one has the potential to change any fight and both are improving across the board. Every elite fighter has a combination of both, and when two great athletes meet technique is the deciding factor.

well we don't much disagree except that I see Athleticism as being far more the differentiator.

MMA has grown past the point where 'tough guys' could enter with little training or technique and compete. Most guys today are 'professional fighters' training full time with professional camps in all aspects of MMA. Not just top guys...MOST GUYS.

And so that leaves the difference in athleticism as the main differentiator as to who excels and climbs the ladder and who does not.

I think a guy like Dustin Hazelette trained his ass off. Had great technical bjj but his athleticism gap left him at the mercy of guys like Kos who just saw this guy moving in slow motion and could land whatever they wanted in the time he was taking to set up.

 

[A Muse of Fire]

Those styles are far from obsolete. They need to be adapted, like literally every other base art (including wrestling, BJJ and ESPECIALLY MT) but they can produce effective fighters.

how and why does MT need to be adapted for MMA more than the others ?

I read that many fighters that are classified as Mauy Thai fighters, are actually Brazilian TKD fighters. I'm referring to Shogun, Anderson Silva and the whole Shoot Boxe team.

I wonder how many fighters have" Mauy Thai" that would meet the approval of people in Thialand.

 

[AhuraMazda]

It seems they weren't good enough BECAUSE they trained in a so called TMA and not boxing or MT along with wrestling. That is the point. And so it makes it seem less relevant that a few TMA moves are being used periodically for a mere element of surprise. That does not change the fact that TMA is producing guys who are not as good at fighting and have less skill and heart than wrestling, Muay Thai and boxing. And so it makes little sense to read that much into the idea that a few TMA moves can be used for the element of surprise.

Karate is as good as muay thai. A Lot of good karate guys in kickboxing. Especially for mma, with the open space and smaller gloves. Whether or not they can defend the takedown in mma is a different story. This thread is about striking techniques. Show me guys who came from muay thai who are doing good. I bet the list isnt that much better.

 

[A Muse of Fire]

Karate is as good as muay thai. A Lot of good karate guys in kickboxing. Especially for mma, with the open space and smaller gloves. Whether or not they can defend the takedown in mma is a different story. This thread is about striking techniques. Show make guys who came from muay thai who are doing good. I bet the list isnt that much better.

there won't be many, because most of the top Mauy Thai fighters weigh less than 155 pounds and are under 21, and don't speak English.

 

[a guy]

well we don't much disagree except that I see Athleticism as being far more the differentiator.

MMA has grown past the point where 'tough guys' could enter with little training or technique and compete. Most guys today are 'professional fighters' training full time with professional camps in all aspects of MMA. Not just top guys...MOST GUYS.

And so that leaves the difference in athleticism as the main differentiator as to who excels and climbs the ladder and who does not.

I think a guy like Dustin Hazelette trained his ass off. Had great technical bjj but his athleticism gap left him at the mercy of guys like Kos who just saw this guy moving in slow motion and could land whatever they wanted in the time he was taking to set up.

I think here's where we disagree. Athleticism will determine who makes it to the top, but once there when all the guys are at least well above average athletes it comes back down to technique and strategy in my opinion. With the athleticism playing a (huge) role in the techniques and strategies used.

 

[a guy]

how and why does MT need to be adapted for MMA more than the others ?

I read that many fighters that are classified as Mauy Thai fighters, are actually Brazilian TKD fighters. I'm referring to Shogun, Anderson Silva and the whole Shoot Boxe team.

I wonder how many fighters have" Mauy Thai" that would meet the approval of people in Thialand.

Look at the typical MT stance. It's generally taller and narrower to facilitate fast, hard kicks. Elbows are often kept wide in position to block round kicks and clinch. Because of the scoring/culture, thai fighters throw a LOT of kicks. You'll see more kicks in a round at lumpinee than you will on an entire MMA card lol. That tall, narrow stance makes it very difficult to box or wrestle effectively. Meanwhile boxing and wrestling stances are much more complimentary. Both benefit from a lot of the same principles (especially getting low, having leverage) and in the past boxers and wrestlers often trained together for strength and for fun.

If you went into MMA with a MT stance, throwing that many kicks and relying on either bigger gloves or clinching to defeat boxing, you'd find yourself taken down and punched a lot. This is why the guys who are seen as better kickers are often easy to hit and/or take down. Cerrone, Barboza, Condit, Silva (to some extent), Oliveira, Matt Brown, etc. All those have either been historically hittable or relatively easy to take down. Silva even got dropped in his last fight trying to work his clinch. There are exceptions of course, usually the guys who are either great wrestlers or have phenomenal flexibility and speed like Jones, Pettis, Aldo and Bendo. Even then, Jones and Bendo aren't good boxers. Aldo and Pettis are amazing though, I think they're the two guys kickers should study most in the UFC. Jones as well for his varied yet comprehensive game, but Aldo and Pettis since they don't have the typical weaknesses.