Social It’s only getting worse... Desmond is Amazing WARNING: *Disturbing Content*

[TheGreatA]

Actually we know quite a lot of Roman society and their sexual behavior.

A Roman male citizen at any period of their history could and would have sexual relations with other men so long as they were of a lower social status and they took the dominant role, it was acceptable and even expected. It was another way for Roman males to assert their dominance and they were really into that sort of thing. We also know their sexual preference in general were in general younger than modern standards, with children as young as 12 being prostitutes, but this is true in basically every ancient society. Life expectancy was 40 or so depending on the region and they didn't have much time to get to business.

The periods of restraint you speak of were very minor exceptions compared to the scale of Roman history and what we know of it, and certainly nowhere close to the rule.

It certainly wasn't normal for Roman soldiers, unless they were raping enemies/slaves.

During the Republic, homosexual behavior among fellow soldiers was subject to harsh penalties, including death,[191] as a violation of military discipline. Polybius (2nd century BC) reports that the punishment for a soldier who willingly submitted to penetration was the fustuarium, clubbing to death.[192]

The passive partners were always heckled in the worst ways.

A man or boy who took the "receptive" role in sex was variously called cinaedus, pathicus, exoletus, concubinus (male concubine), spintria ("analist"), puer ("boy"), pullus ("chick"), pusio, delicatus (especially in the phrase puer delicatus, "exquisite" or "dainty boy"), mollis ("soft", used more generally as an aesthetic quality counter to aggressive masculinity), tener ("delicate"), debilis ("weak" or "disabled"), effeminatus, discinctus ("loose-belted"), pisciculi, spinthriae, and morbosus ("sick")

Under Christian rule, things got even worse for homosexuals:

Attitudes toward same-sex behavior changed as Christianity became more prominent in the Empire. The modern perception of Roman sexual decadence can be traced to early Christian polemic.[227] Apart from measures to protect the liberty of citizens, the prosecution of male–male sex as a general crime began in the 3rd century when male prostitution was banned by Philip the Arab. A series of laws regulating male–male sex were promulgated during the social crisis of the 3rd century, from the statutory rape of minors to marriage between males.[228]

By the end of the 4th century, anally passive men under the Christian Empire were punished by burning.[229] "Death by sword" was the punishment for a "man coupling like a woman" under the Theodosian Code.[230] It is in the 6th century, under Justinian, that legal and moral discourse on male–male sex becomes distinctly Christian:[231] all male–male sex, passive or active, no matter who the partners, was declared contrary to nature and punishable by death.[232] Male–male sex was pointed to as cause for God's wrath following a series of disasters around 542 and 559.[233]

The concept of homosexuality for Romans seemed to be akin to prison gang members.

Even in the 1950's, atleast homosexuals weren't being clubbed to death or burned alive.

 

[Rational Poster]

It certainly wasn't normal for Roman soldiers, unless they were raping enemies/slaves.

During the Republic, homosexual behavior among fellow soldiers was subject to harsh penalties, including death,[191] as a violation of military discipline. Polybius (2nd century BC) reports that the punishment for a soldier who willingly submitted to penetration was the fustuarium, clubbing to death.[192]

The passive partners were always heckled in the worst ways.

A man or boy who took the "receptive" role in sex was variously called cinaedus, pathicus, exoletus, concubinus (male concubine), spintria ("analist"), puer ("boy"), pullus ("chick"), pusio, delicatus (especially in the phrase puer delicatus, "exquisite" or "dainty boy"), mollis ("soft", used more generally as an aesthetic quality counter to aggressive masculinity), tener ("delicate"), debilis ("weak" or "disabled"), effeminatus, discinctus ("loose-belted"), pisciculi, spinthriae, and morbosus ("sick")

Under Christian rule, things got even worse for homosexuals:

Attitudes toward same-sex behavior changed as Christianity became more prominent in the Empire. The modern perception of Roman sexual decadence can be traced to early Christian polemic.[227] Apart from measures to protect the liberty of citizens, the prosecution of male–male sex as a general crime began in the 3rd century when male prostitution was banned by Philip the Arab. A series of laws regulating male–male sex were promulgated during the social crisis of the 3rd century, from the statutory rape of minors to marriage between males.[228]

By the end of the 4th century, anally passive men under the Christian Empire were punished by burning.[229] "Death by sword" was the punishment for a "man coupling like a woman" under the Theodosian Code.[230] It is in the 6th century, under Justinian, that legal and moral discourse on male–male sex becomes distinctly Christian:[231] all male–male sex, passive or active, no matter who the partners, was declared contrary to nature and punishable by death.[232] Male–male sex was pointed to as cause for God's wrath following a series of disasters around 542 and 559.[233]

The concept of homosexuality for Romans seemed to be akin to prison gang members.

Even in the 1950's, atleast homosexuals weren't being clubbed to death or burned alive.

I mean that's what I said. It was not something that happened between equals.

The thing was Roman males, did not have many equals at the time, and very regularly asserted their dominance over their lessers, male and female alike.

It was however normal for most Greek soldiers, especially during their youth and early adulthood.

 

[jamel]

Something aint right at all with that boy.

Its obvious he got turned out

Wade's kid?
Nah, that boys father is living vicariously thru his son.

If i were assignsd to Desmonds welfare check, I would have dug thru his dirty clothes hamper with a blacklight.

 

[goldennirvana]

The entirety of ancient "civilization"

British English > American 'English'

My correction of your spelling of 'pederasty' must've really stung.

but very especially in Greece. We have depictions of pederasty as early as the 7th century BC, several centuries before Alexander and even more centuries before they were conquered by the Romans. This coincides with the first period of Spartan hegemony and the spread of their agoge system through Greece where the relationship between veteran hoplites and those in training was close and intense, and very often sexual by modern standards. Greek law commonly recognized consent, but not age in regards to sexual relations.

Yes, in warrior cultures this kind of thing happened often it seems. I think the Samurais were doing the same.

That, however, is not the 'norm'. So like I said, who EXACTLY was practicing it and how common was it? Just because there is evidence of it being practiced early on in Greek & Roman civilisation, that doesn't mean it was widely accepted and it doesn't mean it was common.

Rural communities are always more conservative than urban populations, and as the vast majority of people lived in rural communities back then (working on farms), it isn't likely they would've accepted such behaviour.

 

[Rational Poster]

British English > American 'English'

My correction of your spelling of 'pederasty' must've really stung.





Yes, in warrior cultures this kind of thing happened often it seems. I think the Samurais were doing the same.

That, however, is not the 'norm'. So like I said, who EXACTLY was practicing it and how common was it? Just because there is evidence of it being practiced early on in Greek & Roman civilisation, that doesn't mean it was widely accepted and it doesn't mean it was common.

Rural communities are always more conservative than urban populations, and as the vast majority of people lived in rural communities back then (working on farms), it isn't likely they would've accepted such behaviour.

It quite obviously was the norm. We are talking about the dominant cultures in those regions that ruled with a regional hegemony for hundreds to thousands of years.

 

[TheGreatA]

I mean that's what I said. It was not something that happened between equals.

The thing was Roman males, did not have many equals at the time, and very regularly asserted their dominance over their lessers, male and female alike.

It was however normal for most Greek soldiers, especially during their youth and early adulthood.

It would be a mistake to make it seem as if homosexuality was something that was liberally practised throughout Roman times, considering that there were centuries throughout which homosexuality was viciously punished (the era of Christianity), and it was always subjected to very strict standards of what people could do or not do, based on class, citizenship and so forth, anything beyond that being possibly punishable by death.

It's not as if you had people going around picking each other up at gay bars, you had upper-class citizens asserting their dominance over slaves and lower class people by essentially ritualistic rape. That's just something entirely different from what we're talking about nowadays.

It's precisely because of how twisted these standards were, that people came to see them as degenerate. Because when you read about the history of it, there's no other way you can treat it, except as degeneracy. Romans going on about their business raping slaves and captured enemies, that's just sick shit, no ifs or buts about it.

 

[AnGrYcRoW]

I mean that's what I said. It was not something that happened between equals.

The thing was Roman males, did not have many equals at the time, and very regularly asserted their dominance over their lessers, male and female alike.

It was however normal for most Greek soldiers.

To be blunt , in Rome it was ok to pitch but not to catch .

Anyone doubting how common this was should look into Roman and Greek art , pornography was essentially everywhere , Pompeii in particular is interesting in that was in many ways, a time capsule .

 

[Rational Poster]

It would be a mistake to make it seem as if homosexuality was something that was liberally practised throughout Roman times, considering that there were centuries throughout which homosexuality was viciously punished (the era of Christianity), and it was always subjected to very strict standards of what people could do or not do, based on class, citizenship and so forth.

It's not as if you had people going around picking each other up at gay bars, you had upper-class citizens asserting their dominance to slaves and lower class people by essentially ritualistic rape. That's just something entirely different from what we're talking about nowadays.

Well, you're torpedo'ing the argument that homosexual practices signals some sort of decline of civilization with this take.

The Christian period was certainly the decline of Western Roman civilization and it's certainly the period in which the practice was at its most persecuted.

However, the practice of homosexual sex between equals was much more prevalent in ancient Greece, and particularly between young boys and older men. Historians think this is because of how boys were educated in Ancient Greece purely by other men, where Roman society women played an active role in education as well.

 

[goldennirvana]

It is quite obviously was the norm. We are talking about the dominant cultures in those regions that ruled with a regional hegemony for hundreds to thousands of years.

Being the norm amongst a warrior class is not the norm for the average person. We're discussing how widely accepted it was amongst the average population. Remember, most people worked on farms in rural communities back then, and those populations are always more conservative.

 

[Rational Poster]

Being the norm amongst a warrior class is not the norm for the average person. We're discussing how widely accepted it was amongst the average population. Remember, most people worked on farms in rural communities back then, and those populations are always more conservative.

Yes everything was just like it is today back then.

 

[goldennirvana]

The Christian period was certainly the decline of Western Roman civilization and it's certainly the period in which the practice was at its most persecuted.

The Western Roman Empire didn't decline because of Christianity. lol

 

[Rational Poster]

The Western Roman Empire didn't decline because of Christianity. lol

I didn't say that. Try reading harder.

 

[goldennirvana]

Yes everything was just like it is today back then.

In your mind you just made a legitimate point. In everyone else's mind, you made yourself look like a fool... again.

 

[goldennirvana]

I didn't say that. Try reading harder.

 

[Rational Poster]

In your mind you just made a legitimate point. In everyone else's mind, you made yourself look like a fool... again.

I've forgotten more about this topic than you'll ever truly know.

The people working the fields were the ones being fucked.

 

[TheGreatA]

Well, you're torpedo'ing the argument that homosexual practices signals some sort of decline of civilization with this take.

The Christian period was certainly the decline of Western Roman civilization and it's certainly the period in which the practice was at its most persecuted.

However, the practice of homosexual sex between equals was much more prevalent in ancient Greece, and particularly between young boys and older men. Historians think this is because of how boys were educated in Ancient Greece purely by other men, where Roman society women played an active role in education as well.

The decline had already began prior to the Christianization, with the Christianization being more of a desperate attempt of salvaging what was left (which did, to a degree, work with the East Roman Empire).

This guy was seen as having started the turn of events which led to the "Crisis of the Third Century":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elagabalus

He revolted even the Romans, and he suffered post-humously "damnatio memoriae", meaning that his whole existence was wiped out from all the records.

 

[Rational Poster]

I wish I had a dollar for every time a poster called you out for being a fucking idiot, I could retire to a private island somewhere....

If I had a dollar for every time someone gave a shit about anything you posted or thought I would have zero dollars.

 

[Rational Poster]

The decline had already began prior to the Christianization, with the Christianization being more of a desperate attempt of salvaging what was left (which did, to a degree, work with the East Roman Empire).

This guy was seen as having started the turn of events which led to the "Crisis of the Third Century":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elagabalus

He revolted even the Romans, and he suffered post-humously "damnatio memoriae", meaning that his whole existence was wiped out from all the records.

Sure, but the peak certainly was well before the Christian period, and it was obviously before the 3rd century, which is my point.

The majority of Roman history this type of behavior was not only accepted, but expected. "Sexual degeneracy" by modern standards doesn't seem to have much to do with their rise or fall, and is just a cultural detail that's insignificant compared to things like planning and logistics, or the lack of it.

 

[goldennirvana]

The people working the fields were the ones being fucked.

So it wasn't widely accepted then. Thanks for admitting I'm right. LOL

 

[Rational Poster]

So it wasn't widely accepted then. Thanks for admitting I'm right. LOL

Nope, you're clearly wrong.