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but they were, by today's standards , degenerates for their entire run .

Bullshit. Degenerates do not create, and maintain a civilisation for such a long time. By definition, it's impossible.
 
Nothing lasts forever , Rome had a great run , as did Greece , the reasons they fell are myriad but they were, by today's standards , degenerates for their entire run .

Not really. There were periods of virtuousness as well as degeneracy. The "common folk" for the most part adhered to the same standards as they always have, with the elites involving themselves in a greater level of debauchery.

The problem was that those periods of virtuousness were often enforced by outright tyranny, leaving a sour taste about it (no different from the theocratic orders we've seen).

The true task is to encourage people to live morally by their own free will, leaving, of course, some room for human imperfection.
 
Bullshit. Degenerates do not create, and maintain a civilisation for such a long time. By definition, it's impossible.
My god you are ignorant , it was common for Greek men to fuck prepubescent boys , it was normal , it's just a fact as abhorrent as it is.

Read a fecking book once in awhile .
 
Bullshit. Degenerates do not create, and maintain a civilisation for such a long time. By definition, it's impossible.

This argument is akin to looking at the excesses and perversions of the most decadent and lush people in the US today and arguing that it is how everyone should live.

Most people didn't live that way then and most people don't live that way now. There is a reason for that. Because it existed in the past doesn't justify it today.
 
The true task is to encourage people to live morally by their own free will, leaving, of course, some room for human imperfection.
And this is why all authoritarian systems will fail. From aristocratic rulers, to The Church of 500 years ago, to the state religion of the CCCP of just a few decades ago and to Islam of today, they all either evolve or go through a revolution. Deontological ethics has a place in this particular conversation. We see the advocates of all these systems be exposed as hypocrites daily because they toe the line due to fear of repercussions and not because they believe in the dogma.

Untold number of Christians are closeted scumbags, yet due to fear of going to hell they try to act "right", but can only go counter to their nature for so long before the real person slips out. That's one of the reasons I roll my eyes at simpletons who say you can't be a moral person without religion. We evolved empathy to support the "greater good" and by extension developed morality. I do acknowledge there's value in religion, but looking for morality amongst the demonstrably corrupted hypocrites that consist the main body of all religious organizations is a fools errand. They're just as fucked up as any other people. Moral philosophy is a bit of a twisty road.
 
My god you are ignorant , it was common for Greek men to fuck prepubescent boys , it was normal , it's just a fact as abhorrent as it is.

Read a fecking book once in awhile .

Nope, it's not a fact that it was widespread for Greeks to do such a thing throughout their ENTIRE civilisation's lifespan. At one point it may have been common, but that would've been when their civilisation was declining, and that's the point - such behaviour only becomes commonplace when a civilisation is declining.

Engage brain before typing.
 
Nope, it's not a fact that it was widespread for Greeks to do such a thing throughout their ENTIRE civilisation's lifespan. At one point it may have been common, but that would've been when their civilisation was declining, and that's the point - such behaviour only becomes commonplace when a civilisation is declining.

Engage brain before typing.

Holy shit he doesn't know anything about Greek history. @MVelsor


<Dany07>
 
Holy shit he doesn't know anything about Greek history. @MVelsor

You're just too stupid to understand what I'm saying.

@AnGrYcRoW claimed the Greeks & Romans were "degenerates for their entire run". Impossible, as degenerates don't create civilisations because they're too busy being degenerates. It takes hard work to build a civilisation. Does that mean Greeks & Romans never engaged in decadent behaviour? Of course not. But when EXACTLY did this behaviour become widely accepted? During the civilisations' decline phase, not its growth or peak.

You don't understand how civilisations work. And I see you've been yellow carded again. Maybe take the hint?
 
You're just too stupid to understand what I'm saying.

@AnGrYcRoW claimed the Greeks & Romans were "degenerates for their entire run". Impossible, as degenerates don't create civilisations because they're too busy being degenerates. It takes hard work to build a civilisation. Does that mean Greeks & Romans never engaged in decadent behaviour? Of course not. But when EXACTLY did this behaviour become widely accepted? During the civilisations' decline phase, not its growth or peak.

You don't understand how civilisations work. And I see you've been yellow carded again. Maybe take the hint?

You're applying modern morals to ancient civilization and that makes you look really bad to anyone that actual studies history even at an entry level.

The reality is essentially all ancient civilizations engaged in what we would consider hebephilia today and pedastry was also common throughout the entire greek and roman civilizations, and they certainly didn't consider the behavior degenerate at the time.
 
You're applying modern morals to ancient civilization and that makes you look really bad to anyone that actual studies history even at an entry level.

Human nature hasn't changed and the laws of nature haven't changed. What brought/helped to bring down civilisations thousands of years ago also applies to today.

The reality is essentially all ancient civilizations engaged in what we would consider hebephilia today and pedastry was also common throughout the entire greek and roman civilizations, and they certainly didn't consider the behavior degenerate at the time.

Of course they ENGAGED in it, that's not what we're discussing here. What we're discussing is how common it was, at which period(s) was it most common (rise, peak, decline or collapse phase)? And who EXACTLY engaged in it? Was it the average person? Well considering the average person was busy working the land back then, not likely.

It's quite telling you don't even know how to spell 'pederasty'... "pedastry"... LOL that's not simply a typo.
 
You're applying modern morals to ancient civilization and that makes you look really bad to anyone that actual studies history even at an entry level.

The reality is essentially all ancient civilizations engaged in what we would consider hebephilia today and pedastry was also common throughout the entire greek and roman civilizations, and they certainly didn't consider the behavior degenerate at the time.
I wish I had a dollar for every time a poster called you out for being a fucking idiot, I could retire to a private island somewhere....
 
You're applying modern morals to ancient civilization and that makes you look really bad to anyone that actual studies history even at an entry level.

The reality is essentially all ancient civilizations engaged in what we would consider hebephilia today and pedastry was also common throughout the entire greek and roman civilizations, and they certainly didn't consider the behavior degenerate at the time.

These behaviours did have their prominent critics, many Greek philosophers acting as such, and Romans in particular had many "reform movements" which ended up in some kind of tyrannical laws being imposed

Even Emperor Augustus infamously gave a speech in which he prompted Romans to uphold traditional family values:

"If we could survive without a wife, citizens of Rome, all of us would do without that nuisance; but since nature has so decreed that we cannot manage comfortably with them, nor live in any way without them, we must plan for our lasting preservation rather than for our temporary pleasure. "

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lex_Julia

These debates are not really something that are confined to our times, they have continued for as long as civilizations have existed.
 
Human nature hasn't changed and the laws of nature haven't changed. What brought/helped to bring down civilisations thousands of years ago also applies to today.



Of course they ENGAGED in it, that's not what we're discussing here. What we're discussing is how common it was, at which period(s) was it most common (rise, peak, decline or collapse phase)? And who EXACTLY engaged in it? Was it the average person? Well considering the average person was busy working the land back then, not likely.

It's quite telling you don't even know how to spell 'pederasty'... "pedastry"... LOL that's not simply a typo.

The entirety of ancient "civilization", but very especially in Greece. We have depictions of pederasty as early as the 7th century BC, several centuries before Alexander and even more centuries before they were conquered by the Romans. This coincides with the first period of Spartan hegemony and the spread of their agoge system through Greece where the relationship between veteran hoplites and those in training was close and intense, and very often sexual by modern standards. Greek law commonly recognized consent, but not age in regards to sexual relations.
 
These behaviours did have their prominent critics, many Greek philosophers acting as such, and Romans in particular had many "reform movements" which ended up in some kind of tyrannical laws being imposed

Even Emperor Augustus infamously gave a speech in which he prompted Romans to uphold traditional family values:

"If we could survive without a wife, citizens of Rome, all of us would do without that nuisance; but since nature has so decreed that we cannot manage comfortably with them, nor live in any way without them, we must plan for our lasting preservation rather than for our temporary pleasure. "

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lex_Julia

These debates are not really something that are confined to our times, they have continued for as long as civilizations have existed.

But that didn't stop the practice for literal millennia, especially in militaristic and slave cultures like Rome.
 
But that didn't stop the practice for literal millennia, especially in militaristic and slave cultures like Rome.

Sure, and it doesn't stop the practise even now.

I'm sure that they're going to speak of our times as if we were all spending our times in gay orgies, if a more "traditionalist" reversion of fortune ever occurs.

Fact is that we don't really hear much about what the plebs were doing in those days. Probably the same as always, adhering to a set of moral values which made them as productive as possible to the upper-classes, who themselves could go on about their debauchery uninterrupted.
 
Sure, and it doesn't stop the practise even now.

I'm sure that they're going to speak of our times as if we were all spending our times in gay orgies, if a more "traditionalist" reversion of fortune ever occurs.

Fact is that we don't really hear much about what the plebs were doing in those days. Probably the same as always, adhering to a set of moral values which made them as productive as possible to the upper-classes, who themselves could go on about their debauchery uninterrupted.

Actually we know quite a lot of Roman society and their sexual behavior.

A Roman male citizen at any period of their history could and would have sexual relations with other men so long as they were of a lower social status and they took the dominant role, it was acceptable and even expected. It was another way for Roman males to assert their dominance and they were really into that sort of thing. We also know their sexual preference in were in general younger than modern standards, with children as young as 12 being prostitutes, but this is true in basically every ancient society. Life expectancy was 40 or so depending on the region and they didn't have much time to get to business.

The periods of restraint you speak of were very minor exceptions compared to the scale of Roman history and what we know of it, and certainly nowhere close to the rule.
 
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