Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Deltafarce, Jan 6, 2013.
I understand heel hook and toe hold but why isnt the kneebar taught or used much in GI?
From my understanding, there isn't much room for marginal error with knee bars and heel hooks which in turn leaves more people with life long injuries.
I was told once that leg locks are just a cop out anyways, I haven't used them live since.
Leg locks are not a cop out. That's a BS fallacy that needs to stop.
Who the heck thinks leg locks are a cop out? Try making them a serious part of your game and tapping out your best training partners. Its probably not gonna work... Unless they really suck. Legs are half the body, ignoring them would be cheating yourself out of learning biomechanics and more awesome submissions, in my opinion.
straight knee bar is relatively safe.
But you can do it without been straight or even do a twisting one and that hurts.
In my opinion, it is really hard to finish a knee bar if you cannot use the toe hold anyway.
Sorry for the confusion.
When I was told that they are a "cop out", it was in reference to beginners learning and relying on leg locks for submissions rather than learning proper transitions and how to patiently reach your goal.
Hope that clears some things up.
Leg locks are legitimate.
That being said, there are some people that use them as a crutch. Of course, there are people that use lots of things as a crutch, not just leg locks.
People that shoot ankle locks and toe holds because their guard passing sucks....well, they get their reward. They get a tap against someone that doesn't know how to properly defend the leg lock and they feel good about themselves....until people become wise to their game and learn to defend those leg locks.
Then their "win" button is gone and they are no further along in figuring out how to pass guard.
I believe that the knee bar should be legal at blue belt.
I'm a bit biased, as I am a blue belt, and they are my favorite submission. I just really don't see why the IBJJF thinks that only brown belts and up can safely apply them...
We learn the straight knee bar at blue belt in my school. No heel hooks or toe holds if you don't know when to tap out with those you can really damage yourself.
Yes, there is more "tap or snap" time on a kneebar compared to heelhooks.
kneebars are taught at most BJJ schools in my experience..? my coach fkn loves them and often gets me with them
under ibjjf rules they are not ok until brown though and we roll to the rules of the higher belt in any class match
Leg locks are not a cop out. They are an absolutely legitimate submission.
I believe that they should be taught at, and legal at, blue belt. The reason why they aren't, and shouldn't, taught at white belt is because they do take away from the actual basics of BJJ. If a white belt got good at them, and I've seen it, they will attempt knee bars more exclusively, and may not learn the fundamentals of guard passing, etc.
only real unsafe leglock is the heel hook. knee bars, toe holds, achillies holds should all be legal from blue belt on up imo. i could see a heel hook as being a cop out in sparring. if someone even attempts one on me in sparring ill tap rather than try getting out of it even if its poorly applied. its not worth risking my knee getting blown out to avoid getting tapped in sparring.
Because if you get someone who gets out of control on an armbar, you are out a few weeks. You get someone who goes nuts on a kneebar and you are out 6k and 12 months.
I see no problem with straight knee bars, it hurts a fuck ton before anything comes close to break... I see no problem with any leg lock sub that is not twsiting anything, problems show up with twisting stuff....
I was told by a crazy russian that every leg lock should have at least a subtle twisting motion in it to remove the slack.
For example, in the kneebar, one hand should grab the heel, push down, and twist alittle outward.
It works like crazy.
Mind you, its the same concept for every joint lock...try it with the armbar, its like magic.
But Hurting a knee that way, it would really damage the joint.
Bottom line, leglocks are safe when used by two egoless grapplers who are schooled in leglocks and their escapes.
For the average Joe (or bjjer) The only "really" safe leglock, is indeed the straight ankle lock.
I've been knee-barred plenty of times, they are pretty safe.
Heel hooks on the other hand... that shit is approaching dangerous territory for new grapplers.
That basically means the same thing you originally said. What's wrong with relying on leg locks? Learn to defend it, and if it works for them, then let that be their game. There's no proper guideline on how to grapple, just people's preferences and ideologies getting in the way. Just because the Gracies weren't leg lock specialists doesn't mean BJJ still has to follow their philosophy. In fact, I'd prefer the guy who's good at leg locks than the guy who uses the Berimbolo, at least there's practical purposes.
This is coming from a guy who just does triangle chokes too. Haha, I support all submissions at any level, as long as they're safe.
Kneebar is pretty safe in that your opponent usually has to want to affirmatively hurt you in order to cause injury, and you usually have to affirmatively decide to tough it out in order to get hurt.
Neither of those points is true with a heelhook.
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