Is this OK or Cheap?

No offense but you sound like a complete prick to train with.

I'm really not. I don't smash for kicks. If it is not accomplishing something, I don't do it. To me, the guy who tries to get the mercy release because his chin was tucked is really the prick. Too concerned about getting tapped, would rather get the mercy release. If you want to defend, do something that would actually work outside of me having mercy.

But most of the guys at my gym know not to tuck the chin and hope someone lets go of the choke. Its not a valid defense. If you tap from the chin tuck, it still counts. Its your fault you tucked your chin.

I don't face smash for kicks, but if the choke is on and you think I am going to let go because you stuck your chin in, I am not.

Whoever said wait till I burn out, ok... try that technique in your next competition. Stick your chin to block a bow choke and see who wins the battle of attrition.
 
I disagree, I have done the major tournaments and if people take it easy on you then you are in for a big surprise. Why not learn the right way to do it? I mean I take it easy but for comp training, sometimes learning the hard way is the only way.

I mean I wouldn't wanna try and injure someone or fingers, but you gotta go hard if you wanna compete at a higher level.

I agree with this.
But your partner should be on board with how the roll is going to go. I usually suggest a roll tempo like "let's go light", "just positional", "50%", "75%" or "shit's about to get real" before a roll because I don't want to try and catch the guy off guard. That would be cheap. But as long as you are both training for competition, then they should expect to be in competition situations.
 
Whoever said wait till I burn out, ok... try that technique in your next competition. Stick your chin to block a bow choke and see who wins the battle of attrition.

well, i come from a mainly MMA background and i don't really do alot of gi stuff, so i don't run into the bow and arrow a whole lot. but it still works. if you aren't choking me, and you can't get under my chin, i'm not in danger. discomfort yes, but danger, no. so squeeze away, you'll get tired, won't be able to throw strikes, grapple effectively etc... goody for me. either you gas out, i escape, or you keep squeezing the whole round, and i get to restart, either way it's fine.

in your position, i would rather adjust to sink the choke correctly than waste a bunch of energy squeezing someone to the point of tapping.
 
well, i come from a mainly MMA background and i don't really do alot of gi stuff, so i don't run into the bow and arrow a whole lot. but it still works. if you aren't choking me, and you can't get under my chin, i'm not in danger. discomfort yes, but danger, no. so squeeze away, you'll get tired, won't be able to throw strikes, grapple effectively etc... goody for me. either you gas out, i escape, or you keep squeezing the whole round, and i get to restart, either way it's fine.

in your position, i would rather adjust to sink the choke correctly than waste a bunch of energy squeezing someone to the point of tapping.

I mean, I am not slapping on a face choke and hoping they give up. I am talking about the choke is about to come on, last second chin gets tucked. The gi will eventually slip under about 90% of the time IME. My instructor says the jaw will break pretty easily, I personally have never carried it that far.

No gi, I use the hadaka jime to get my rnc started, or under the nose. That's what reminded me of this. It doesn't do a lot fo good to forearm smash the face IME.

Also, competions are only 5 or 6 minutes at my level, most guys can pretty much squeeze for the full time. But I think you are underestimating how strong the pressure from a collar can be, teeth will break and stuff. It hurts like a mother, because I have done the chin tuck myself in comp.
 
I agree with this.
But your partner should be on board with how the roll is going to go. I usually suggest a roll tempo like "let's go light", "just positional", "50%", "75%" or "shit's about to get real" before a roll because I don't want to try and catch the guy off guard. That would be cheap. But as long as you are both training for competition, then they should expect to be in competition situations.

Yeah, I don't try to surprise guys. But we have beginner, advnaced and competition classes. If you show up to competition class, there is no going light, its full speed.

We have guys that don't want to learn, they just want to come in and roll, al ot of wrestlers and UFC guys... my instructor used to make them come to beginner classes. He got so sick of people arguing with him, that he just said to hell with it. Now he just tells them to come to comp class. So now we have to listen to them bitch about the gi constantly.
 
I mean, I am not slapping on a face choke and hoping they give up. I am talking about the choke is about to come on, last second chin gets tucked. The gi will eventually slip under about 90% of the time IME. My instructor says the jaw will break pretty easily, I personally have never carried it that far.

i see what you mean. if all you are doing is trying a half ass chin tuck and nothing else, that's not gonna work and you're gonna get handled. tucking isn't the "be-all, end-all" to choke defense, but it is a part of it. i'm tucking my chin, turtling my neck, hunching my shoulders, moving my hips, getting hand control etc... and even then, that might not always work.


But I think you are underestimating how strong the pressure from a collar can be, teeth will break and stuff. It hurts like a mother, because I have done the chin tuck myself in comp.

it does suck, but sucks alot less with a good mouthpiece. :icon_chee
 
i see what you mean. if all you are doing is trying a half ass chin tuck and nothing else, that's not gonna work and you're gonna get handled. tucking isn't the "be-all, end-all" to choke defense, but it is a part of it. i'm tucking my chin, turtling my neck, hunching my shoulders, moving my hips, getting hand control etc... and even then, that might not always work.




it does suck, but sucks alot less with a good mouthpiece. :icon_chee


Yeah, all that. I guess people do all those things instinctively, and they are all part of defending a choke. But I guess I just don't let go when it has all failed and all the remains is the chin. I am surprised by how many guys think I should be think you should let go of them. Why would I let go? I am not the one who stuck my face in the way.

It is definitely a gi related issue though.
 
ts, the breadcutter choke (with gi) is similar to what ur describing (it isn't what you're describing, though), so i don't see a problem.
sometimes when i roll a guy will do a goofy guard or try to choke me from bottom cross side or something and i see the chance to ezekiel, grab his collar and cross choke, or amassa pao. he has to react and protect his neck and he can't continue attacking my legs or my neck.
i'd like to see what a purple+ thinks about this tho.
 
its bjj aka submission fucking wrestling, if its a technique with a purpose then you should utilize it as long as your not puting your partner in risk of serious injury.
Personally If I get a crossface while in bottom half im probably taking that back soon after, but if it works for you- use it.
 
I'm a 7 month white and just want to check on a technique to make sure it's cool.

Just recently moved up to the intermediate class so now I'm rolling with mostly blue.

Thanks.

Congratulations! I believe this officially makes you a "Probationary blue." Don't know why I think that but I vaguely remember hearing that somewhere.
 
just do what you do when the time comes to switch things up you'll know it
 
ts, the breadcutter choke (with gi) is similar to what ur describing (it isn't what you're describing, though), so i don't see a problem.
sometimes when i roll a guy will do a goofy guard or try to choke me from bottom cross side or something and i see the chance to ezekiel, grab his collar and cross choke, or amassa pao. he has to react and protect his neck and he can't continue attacking my legs or my neck.
i'd like to see what a purple+ thinks about this tho.

I think you're reacting in the perfect way. Using attacks as defense is a favorite tactic of mine, especially with massa pao.

To the TS- you're doing fine. Be nice to your partner, but once again- TUCKING THE CHIN IS NOT A VALID DEFENSE. If thats where you're getting stuck, you need to look two or three steps back for a solution. Don't let him set it up, and you won't have to worry about your jaw.
 
As far as I'm concerned, if it has a legitimate purpose and doesn't cause injury, it's fair game. That's not to say that you have to use every tool at your disposal all the time - there are light/flow rolls and then there are hard/competition rolls and they each have their place - but techniques aren't cheap or dirty simply because they cause discomfort or even pain.
 
I'm a 7 month white and just want to check on a technique to make sure it's cool.

Just recently moved up to the intermediate class so now I'm rolling with mostly blue.

I stay on top most of the time because my guards not that strong, Ill pull guard with a white belt but not a blue.

Anyway, I sometime get's into their half guard and can work chokes from here. So for example, I'm in half guard of the my left side (he has my right leg caught). I'll go cross collar with my left hand. Get it deep and some time be able to get a bow/arrow choke. If not I just use the one arm to apply pressure the throat to work my leg free. I'll go back and forth between trying for a 2 handed choke or just working the leg out by applying pressure. My question, is it a cheap thing to keep the forearm on the throat for pressure or is it just like every other choke attempt?

Just checking because I don't want to piss off any of the new guys I'm rolling with now. I know some people say cross faces are cheap.

Thanks.

i might be missing something obvious here, but how are you getting the bow and arrow like that?

you are using your left hand to go in deep on the other guy's FAR lapel, correct? so that your left forearm is across his throat?

and my take is, if you have your forearm across their neck and not their chin, then smash away. its a legit submission. but if you're just grinding it across their face to cause discomfort, then that's kinda dick.
 
Sounds ok to me. My coach taught me a guardpass that involved the forearm across the throat, not to submit but to distract from what you`r actually doing.
 
Sounds ok to me. My coach taught me a guardpass that involved the forearm across the throat, not to submit but to distract from what you`r actually doing.

Sounds fine to me, too. More importantly, it sounds fine to Robert Drysdale! At a RD seminar I attended, he pointed out the breadcutter (or paper cutter, as some call it) choke is his favorite gi-specific distraction to faciliate the half-guard pass.

I don't get where some many guys are saying they'll take the back from here. If I'm in top-half with my left leg inside, I'll have my left arm underhook and work the forearm choke with my right. I feel very protected against giving up my back. I also feel I'm in little danger from the bump and arm-triangle, because I have a firm lapel grip with my right hand. Nobody will be pushing my elbow up past the throat if my grip holds.

And like a couple other posters here have said, I too am lost as to how you efficiently get to bow & arrow choke from here. Nearest I can figure, I'd have to secure my half-guard underhook with my inside arm (I'll call it left arm, left leg inside), get a deep underhook under his head with my right arm, grabbing the near lapel, and fall back, pulling him partially up onto me, getting my right leg under his back. Pretty tough move, not impossible, but I'd rather pull the kimono skirt loose, feed it around his neck and hit the brabo.
 
sounds fine to me.

work your guard though
 
Sounds fine to me, too. More importantly, it sounds fine to Robert Drysdale! At a RD seminar I attended, he pointed out the breadcutter (or paper cutter, as some call it) choke is his favorite gi-specific distraction to faciliate the half-guard pass.

I don't get where some many guys are saying they'll take the back from here. If I'm in top-half with my left leg inside, I'll have my left arm underhook and work the forearm choke with my right. I feel very protected against giving up my back. I also feel I'm in little danger from the bump and arm-triangle, because I have a firm lapel grip with my right hand. Nobody will be pushing my elbow up past the throat if my grip holds.

And like a couple other posters here have said, I too am lost as to how you efficiently get to bow & arrow choke from here. Nearest I can figure, I'd have to secure my half-guard underhook with my inside arm (I'll call it left arm, left leg inside), get a deep underhook under his head with my right arm, grabbing the near lapel, and fall back, pulling him partially up onto me, getting my right leg under his back. Pretty tough move, not impossible, but I'd rather pull the kimono skirt loose, feed it around his neck and hit the brabo.

yup, as long as you keep the underhook on the far side, they aren't getting your back. if they go for it, you have the whizzer to keep them from getting around.
 
I looked up the bow and arrow choke. It's not that move, sorry.

Not sure what its actually called, I've called this choke I'm referring to as the bow and arrow because that's what I thought it was based on the movement.

What it is is a varaition on the cross collar but the second hand (in this case my right hand) would just grab the gi down under the throat by the chest and not be sunk in deep on the collar.

Sorry for the confusion.

Now that I looked it up it looks like very similiar to this move which is called paper cutter, same as the bread cutter?

YouTube - paper cutter choke variation from mount in bjj
 
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