Is this legal?

[Mike]

Yeah, it is so fucked up the thinking that is prevalent in the states when it comes to crime. Throwing people in jail does NOT help society. It makes them harder criminals, or just stagnates whatever growth they could have had.
Once you have a record, good luck getting a good job. And now you are behind on everything, so there goes your credit, and taking care of your kids. This is just fueling the cycle

We should HELP these people so they can help themselves. But people want to scream "socialism!!" Like redneck morons

And very true what you said about the few people that make it out of the hood. Those people are the exceptional ones. Most people are not special. Theyre between stupid to averqge. And you're expecting that dumb or average guy to raise up out of the shithole he's in by himself? Because one guy did it, people will point and say "see, he did it. So can you "
Well, no. That's not reality.
I will never be Bill Gates, or Steve Jobs. Just like every kid from the hood can't be judge or doctor.

Had a couple buddies that got felonies young, nonviolent stuff. Mostly theft. It was unreal watching their frustration trying to turn their life around without getting in more trouble. Can't get a job at 90% of places with a felony on your record, and that shit lasts for seven years. They were always broke and owing people money. Trying to find better jobs and getting shut down. I remember talking to one really close friend and he was on the verge of tears. Like I screwed up, I get it, and now I'm trying to do better. But even fast food places don't want to hire me and this shit is on my record for 5 more years? What am I supposed to do?

It's a fucked up system more interested in exploiting people than real rehabilitation. I wonder how much crime is purely due to people getting out of jail and not being able to find work, so they're back to hustling selling drugs, stealing cars, etc. If we wanted to rehab people, shouldn't we give them trade schooling or community college, then drop the offense off their record if they complete the course and get a job?

Seems like that would make way more sense than arbitrary punishment. Violent offenders I completely agree with removing from society, but that leaves millions of people we're seemingly punishing just for the fun of it.

 

[SmilinDesperado]

I lived part of my young life in very poor areas and went to 90% black schools, I know exactly what it’s like.

Have you ever had to go to school as a child, where to go to the bathroom you had to have your best friend go with you and fight your way to a stall? Then you both go in the stall and one has to hold the door shut while the other uses the restroom and then you swap? The. You have to fight your way back out to keep your lunch money?

I didn’t become a theif, and I made good grades.

And when my parents had the money to move I was behind at a better school for a while until I caught up, but if I had been out trying to steal Jordan’s and act like a thug I wouldn’t be where I am today.

You can’t blame the situation, it’s the upbringing that does it.

I’ve been all over this planet, and been to some areas with real mother fucking poverty, poverty that makes them look like they are living like kings and those people would give you food in portions larger than they eat for a week.

The inner city bullshit excuses is what perpetuates it, not the fact of being poor.

And nobody said to turn a blind eye to crime, or that these kids were misunderstood angels.
I went to a shitty ass school as well, and i managed to stay out of trouble , but i also had a lot more than a lot of my peers in terms of support and family

You can't put it all on the situation, but you also can't act like it isn't a major factor. You're a product of your environment to a large extent
Not every kid in the hood is a bad kid, but it's a lot harder to be good when you're living in a bad neighborhood.

You were strong enough, and your parents were smart enough to get away, but if you lived that life, then you should also understand that there's a ton of people that didn't have your will, didn't have 2 competent parents, and had a whole host of other problems that you didn't. I definitely had friends like that

Ive been around the world too, and ive found it kind of pointless to compare poverty on a country to country basis. We have different realities, and we should focus on the ones we live in. Talking about a kid in Somalia is just a completely different world with a different set of problems to a kid in Baltimore hood

 

[Mike]

I lived part of my young life in very poor areas and went to 90% black schools, I know exactly what it’s like.

Have you ever had to go to school as a child, where to go to the bathroom you had to have your best friend go with you and fight your way to a stall? Then you both go in the stall and one has to hold the door shut while the other uses the restroom and then you swap? The. You have to fight your way back out to keep your lunch money?

I didn’t become a theif, and I made good grades.

And when my parents had the money to move I was behind at a better school for a while until I caught up, but if I had been out trying to steal Jordan’s and act like a thug I wouldn’t be where I am today.

You can’t blame the situation, it’s the upbringing that does it.

I’ve been all over this planet, and been to some areas with real mother fucking poverty, poverty that makes them look like they are living like kings and those people would give you food in portions larger than they eat for a week.

The inner city bullshit excuses is what perpetuates it, not the fact of being poor.

I grew up in a shithole and I was poor. I was raised to not steal from other people no matter how much I wanted it.

Congrats on being exceptional or having a support system, or both. Now remember the majority of people in this situation are not exceptional and do not have a support system. Too many people look at it like this, well I went thru etc. and I'm this kind of person. Ok, everyone isn't you. And doesn't have your resources or capabilities.

 

[SmilinDesperado]

Had a couple buddies that got felonies young, nonviolent stuff. Mostly theft. It was unreal watching their frustration trying to turn their life around without getting in more trouble. Can't get a job at 90% of places with a felony on your record, and that shit lasts for seven years. They were always broke and owing people money. Trying to find better jobs and getting shut down. I remember talking to one really close friend and he was on the verge of tears. Like I screwed up, I get it, and now I'm trying to do better. But even fast food places don't want to hire me and this shit is on my record for 5 more years? What am I supposed to do?

It's a fucked up system more interested in exploiting people than real rehabilitation. I wonder how much crime is purely due to people getting out of jail and not being able to find work, so they're back to hustling selling drugs, stealing cars, etc. If we wanted to rehab people, shouldn't we give them trade schooling or community college, then drop the offense off their record if they complete the course and get a job?

Seems like that would make way more sense than arbitrary punishment. Violent offenders I completely agree with removing from society, but that leaves millions of people we're seemingly punishing just for the fun of it.

Yep. I got 2 uncles that have been in and out of jail most their lives because of drugs. They get busted, clean up, go to rehab , andddd then they start that job search..

And whatever deadend, shit job they can get isn't helping them to go anywhere in life..and then they slip right back into the same shit, and the cycle continues

 

[mooseman17]

I think it is a big mistake to consider poor = poor. My work and travels has led me to 'real' poor places like parts of India, Bangladesh, and Cambodia. But the infrastructure, rules, communities, opportunities,...EVERYTHING is different there.
You just can't compare poverty in NA to poverty in other parts of the world.
It's a different kind of poverty, but it doesn't make NA poverty unreal.
Tvs are so cheap in the states that anybody can have them nowadays, but having one doesn't make you rich.

I don't quite understand what the first bold part means. I haven't traveled to poor areas, but prior to immigrating to Canada I grew up in a third world country in the Eastern Bloc during the fall of the Soviet Union, and there is a big difference between not being able to eat due to a shortage on food, even if you have the means to pay for it, and being able to purchase cheap TVs. Not to mention the excruciating winters, but obviously pockets of US gets these as well.

Why can you not compare the levels of poverty? When you traveled to those destinations, did your dollar not go farther than in your own country? ( I don't know where you're actually from so the default guess is always somewhere in the US)

NA is good at keeping poor people alive longer. But they're just living longer, miserable lives with mlre distractions, things a rich nation like the US can afford. Food is plentiful, so people don't starve here, they're just kept alive living meaningless lives

Just that point alone is huge. You cannot starve unless for some reason you refuse to utilize food banks or handouts.

What would entail a non meaningless life as that seems a bit subjective. (Serious question) As some people think a 9 to 5, 5 days per week is brutal and choose to travel and work sporadically until their next flight or spend their time partaking in the outdoors instead. To each his own.

And how does one "just move" out of a shitty area? People really discount how difficult it is for a poor person to just move to a new area. Do they have a car? Probably not. Can they get a job? How do they even move from house A to B? A lot of these communities are there because their fathers and grandfathers are from there. They're probably living in their family's home, or the apartment lease is under their grandma's name, or the one other family member that has decent credit, or in an area where the government gives them assistance. If it was so easy to move , people would do it.
And where do you think guys in poor places get money to buy phones and shoes? It's not from a 9 to 5

Of course it's hard to move, it is for anybody. But if you have finally had enough, you save up what little you have from government assistance, or your minimum wage job, shit even your "hustle", and go. How far I don't know, do research at a library. If an environment is toxic then a person should abandon it. According to their website, a trip from Miami to Seattle from $198. That covers a pretty far distance.

Why cant they get a job? There are labour ready and places like that pretty much anywhere, do your research and make sure your new destination has one. I'm sure you can also search cash jobs on Craiglist that will pay you peanuts but hard work needs to be done to get on one's feet. Slowly but surely you can move on up.

As far as housing goes, there are shelters. Once you have found some form of income you can then move up to having a bunch of roommates and slowly go from there.

I think where you and I have a disagreement or possibly a misunderstanding is from what I gather you are equating a poor person to what sounds like a gang member/drug addict mentality that only knows of the "hustle", while I am equating them to being flat broke but still able to eat due to the handouts. Which is why I don't understand why a person who is able to eat and has a place to stay would be stealing.

Imo and maybe yours, the real issue is not that the poor people in the States don't have access to money but due to generations of bad habits/decision making being ingrained into them by their family members and their environment, they do not spend it wisely and do not know how to get out of the hole. It also does not help when young people see IG millionaires acting like idiots and strive for that and mimic their behavior instead of focusing on real world skills.

I'm okay with this baiting tactic for serious crimes. Murder, rape, and pedophilia.
Or if they were trying to catch a particular theif that had an MO of stealing in a particular way.
Baiting poor people into commiting small crimes just feels like preying on the weak. Go after real criminals

I understand baiting pedophiles with the Chris Hansen show and all, how do you bait for murder and rape?

 

[minute bull]

What if they hypothetically filled it with textbooks? Would they still arrest them for taking a math book?

Nine hundred community college freshmen were arrested today, some at Kinkos in a daring daylight flashrobbery ....

 

[mooseman17]

Maybe it is, in neighborhoods like these crimes by theft almost always go unsolved.

So they don’t see any repercussions for stealing shit.

Maybe this is to try and teach them a lesson that this is bad and you will get in trouble for it.



I don’t get the black knighting here where people think just because you are poor it’s ok to steal and have no morals.



They’ve been trying that for decades, it doesn’t work.



The text books wouldn’t have been fucked with.

Maybe they should do that next to prove a point.

Inner city kids put higher value on Jordan’s than they do books, or education.

Jordan’s won’t get you out of the hood. Education will

This may be false.

 

[Mike]

I don't quite understand what the first bold part means. I haven't traveled to poor areas, but prior to immigrating to Canada I grew up in a third world country in the Eastern Bloc during the fall of the Soviet Union, and there is a big difference between not being able to eat due to a shortage on food, even if you have the means to pay for it, and being able to purchase cheap TVs. Not to mention the excruciating winters, but obviously pockets of US gets these as well.

Why can you not compare the levels of poverty? When you traveled to those destinations, did your dollar not go farther than in your own country? ( I don't know where you're actually from so the default guess is always somewhere in the US)



Just that point alone is huge. You cannot starve unless for some reason you refuse to utilize food banks or handouts.

What would entail a non meaningless life as that seems a bit subjective. (Serious question) As some people think a 9 to 5, 5 days per week is brutal and choose to travel and work sporadically until their next flight or spend their time partaking in the outdoors instead. To each his own.



Of course it's hard to move, it is for anybody. But if you have finally had enough, you save up what little you have from government assistance, or your minimum wage job, shit even your "hustle", and go. How far I don't know, do research at a library. If an environment is toxic then a person should abandon it. According to their website, a trip from Miami to Seattle from $198. That covers a pretty far distance.

Why cant they get a job? There are labour ready and places like that pretty much anywhere, do your research and make sure your new destination has one. I'm sure you can also search cash jobs on Craiglist that will pay you peanuts but hard work needs to be done to get on one's feet. Slowly but surely you can move on up.

As far as housing goes, there are shelters. Once you have found some form of income you can then move up to having a bunch of roommates and slowly go from there.

I think where you and I have a disagreement or possibly a misunderstanding is from what I gather you are equating a poor person to what sounds like a gang member/drug addict mentality that only knows of the "hustle", while I am equating them to being flat broke but still able to eat due to the handouts. Which is why I don't understand why a person who is able to eat and has a place to stay would be stealing.

Imo and maybe yours, the real issue is not that the poor people in the States don't have access to money but due to generations of bad habits/decision making being ingrained into them by their family members and their environment, they do not spend it wisely and do not know how to get out of the hole. It also does not help when young people see IG millionaires acting like idiots and strive for that and mimic their behavior instead of focusing on real world skills.



I understand baiting pedophiles with the Chris Hansen show and all, how do you bait for murder and rape?

The way our aid works is a catch 22. If you work, even at a job that doesn't pay enough to live on, no food stamps and no low cost housing. If you pop out kids they have to give you welfare. We don't have a system designed to help people struggling and not quite making it. It's designed to reward people that stop trying.


As to the cultural differences, people see themselves as part of a tribe or community and help each other in many third world nations. They see themselves as all being part of the same group. That isn't how it works here. We're divided along race, income, geography, religion, politics, 2nd and 3rd generation, cultures, and in many other ways.


If you're in trouble here you sure as hell can't expect help from a neighbor. People don't see us all as one group of americans obligated to help one another. It's a bunch of tiny tribes that hate each other. You see this divide very clearly with much of the middle class not wanting to help the poor, and even the poor only wanting to help other poor people they see as being in their tribe.

 

[bufetadanacara]

To me this is the difference between police officers and piece of shit pigs.

Police officers might go out and be productive to take actual bad people off the street.
These pigs try to catch kids, that is shameful.

 

[FrontNakedChoke]

Don't the cops have anything better to do?

They're STILL raiding Marijuana dispensaries in my city, when it's so close to being made legal.

Waste of time, money, and resources.

 

[SmilinDesperado]

I don't quite understand what the first bold part means. I haven't traveled to poor areas, but prior to immigrating to Canada I grew up in a third world country in the Eastern Bloc during the fall of the Soviet Union, and there is a big difference between not being able to eat due to a shortage on food, even if you have the means to pay for it, and being able to purchase cheap TVs. Not to mention the excruciating winters, but obviously pockets of US gets these as well.

Why can you not compare the levels of poverty? When you traveled to those destinations, did your dollar not go farther than in your own country? ( I don't know where you're actually from so the default guess is always somewhere in the US)



Just that point alone is huge. You cannot starve unless for some reason you refuse to utilize food banks or handouts.

What would entail a non meaningless life as that seems a bit subjective. (Serious question) As some people think a 9 to 5, 5 days per week is brutal and choose to travel and work sporadically until their next flight or spend their time partaking in the outdoors instead. To each his own.



Of course it's hard to move, it is for anybody. But if you have finally had enough, you save up what little you have from government assistance, or your minimum wage job, shit even your "hustle", and go. How far I don't know, do research at a library. If an environment is toxic then a person should abandon it. According to their website, a trip from Miami to Seattle from $198. That covers a pretty far distance.

Why cant they get a job? There are labour ready and places like that pretty much anywhere, do your research and make sure your new destination has one. I'm sure you can also search cash jobs on Craiglist that will pay you peanuts but hard work needs to be done to get on one's feet. Slowly but surely you can move on up.

As far as housing goes, there are shelters. Once you have found some form of income you can then move up to having a bunch of roommates and slowly go from there.

I think where you and I have a disagreement or possibly a misunderstanding is from what I gather you are equating a poor person to what sounds like a gang member/drug addict mentality that only knows of the "hustle", while I am equating them to being flat broke but still able to eat due to the handouts. Which is why I don't understand why a person who is able to eat and has a place to stay would be stealing.

Imo and maybe yours, the real issue is not that the poor people in the States don't have access to money but due to generations of bad habits/decision making being ingrained into them by their family members and their environment, they do not spend it wisely and do not know how to get out of the hole. It also does not help when young people see IG millionaires acting like idiots and strive for that and mimic their behavior instead of focusing on real world skills.



I understand baiting pedophiles with the Chris Hansen show and all, how do you bait for murder and rape?

Im not saying there isn't a difference in poverty levels and extremes in different countries. What i am saying, is that it's a fruitless conversation. Things will always be better or worse somewhere else, so what is the point of comparing one's hell to another's? Why that hell exists, and why it's even consdiered a hell is going to depend on a lot of circumstances that don't all carry over to country and culture. And how to solve those issues will vary from city to city. So what's the point in making comparisons where the causes of poverty are wildly different?

I am not equating every person that lives in the hood as a gangster. But I am saying that most of them are from broken families. And that they are all surrounded by crime.
Many people are ignorant to the resources they have available. Many people don't know how to research. And where do you think someone with little education will learn to research about shelters and other things? And do you really think it's easy for an able bodied family to just move into shelters until they get on their feet? There's just places with free beds and food ready to go in mass?
How does someone with no money, living on government food stamps save up money to MOVE their family? They're living on welfare.
How do they even get to the library to do research? Many government facilities in low income areas have limited resources and aren't even in convenient locations. A trip to the library could be an 1 hour and a half bus ride. Who has time for that when they have 4 kids and a job?

I think a lot of people don't know how to get out of their hole...we agree on that. But i don't believe the resources you mentioned are nearly as simple to get as you made them out to be..especially if you already have a kid.

As far as baiting, i just meant what i hypothetically would be okay with. I don't know how they would bait for rape, but i know they have baited for murder. They would put up "hitman service " or something on Craigslist , and a jilted wife or husband would message them to try and get their spouse killed

 

[mooseman17]

The way our aid works is a catcdh 22. If you work, even ast a job that doesn't pay enough to live on, no food stamps and no low cost housing. If you have pop out kids they have to give you welfare. We don't have a system designed to help people struggling and not quite making it. It's designed to reward people that stop trying.

I understand that it isn't ideal, but can't the person go to food banks until they slowly move up the employment chain. Our first few years, I don't recall eating non-expired food or out of cans that weren't oblong shape.

The housing part sucks. Is that just for single people or families as well. I can't confirm as I don't remember but I want to say here in BC it's just families that can get low-income housing.

As to the cultural differences, people see themselves as part of a tribe or community and help each other in many third world nations. They see themselves as all being part of the same group. That isn't how it works here. We're divided along race, income, geography, religion, politics, 2nd and 3rd generation, cultures, and in many other ways.

If you're in trouble here you sure as hell can't expect help from a neighbor. People don't see us all as one group of americans obligated to help one another. It's a bunch of tiny tribes that hate each other. You see this divide very clearly with much of the middle class not wanting to help the poor, and even the poor only wanting to help other poor people they see as being in their tribe.

My experiences were before social media and camera phones, so it might be different if I had to do it again, but basically all the poor people just hung out together regardless of race, religion, etc. But then I definitely noticed that once everybody got older, around the end of high school age, a lot of people kind of separated by race.

 

[The Diplomat]

I don't think it's technically entrapment, but I've never understood the point of creating these kinds of situations to get people. These kids wouldn't be stealing shoes unless you left them there.

I dunno about that. Anyone could have left them there - an employee could've royally screwed up. It's up to the individuals to NOT steal them.

I do think the way they did it was wrong. Going to a poor, black neighborhood, driving right next to a basketball court, and just leaving them there. But a citizen shouldn't steal, whether they make it easy for them or not.

 

[OCGSC]

I have a saying in the hood we say. My N it is easy as 1 2 3 don't steal and stay away from me If the fellas(cops) Jump out or park scurry that ass straight into the dark. I didn't still even though it was hard to get a job. Only me and my DGK friends did was steal lighters and rolling paper from each other.

 

[Headkicktoleg]

I dunno about that. Anyone could have left them there - an employee could've royally screwed up. It's up to the individuals to NOT steal them.

I do think the way they did it was wrong. Going to a poor, black neighborhood, driving right next to a basketball court, and just leaving them there. But a citizen shouldn't steal, whether they make it easy for them or not.

I agree, but shoes are so minor, the bait cars make much more sense since that's a felony.

 

[IReallyDoTrainUFC]

Walmart is a bait store.

 

[Mike]

I grew up in poverty, and I can tell you food banks are spread out and hard to find. Many poor people don't even know they exist. Housing works differently for families, which again means you're punished for being responsible and not churning out kids while in poverty. I've been homeless, and close to homeless while under employed. In those circumstances I applied for food stamps and cash assistance and was denied. Even though I didn't make enough at my job to pay rent and utilities and buy food.

Saving money while in poverty is a pipe dream. I'm not talking about buying $200 shoes. I'm talking hoarding every penny and very rarely spending money on something that isn't a necessity. Because things go wrong that cost money, then you're fucked. Better not ever get sick or hurt, have your car break down, get robbed, get your hours cut or laid off, have your pay cut at your job, etc. I've had all of that and more happen, and even being an extremely frugal person you burn through money quick.


Everything is very expensive here compared to what entry level jobs pay. Those jobs also require open availability, even for part time work. So going to school or finding someone to watch your kids, if you have them, is a challenge. Health insurance, car insurance, dental, renters insurance, electricity, water, rent, food, phone. Then consider there are areas of the country with entry level work that pays $14 an hour, and areas where it pays $7 an hour. And your expenses aren't halved if you live in the area with the $7 an hour jobs. Should you move out of the area with only shit jobs? Of course, but that's hard when you're making $7 part time, making 7-9 hundred bucks a month. You're probably operating at a constant deficit at that point.


That's not even getting into stuff like payday loans and rent to own stores, designed purely to fuck over poor people that don't understand finances well. Gambling and liquor stores set up in poor areas, poor access to quality food but fast food places everywhere etc. There is a very predatory system in place designed to separate the poor and ignorant from their money.

 

[minute bull]

Walmart is a bait store.

But they're always out of stock on nightcrawlers tho. Honestly someone might be stealing them.

 

[MikeMcMann]

Legal yes.

But shitty thing to do that likely entangles lots of young people who would not steal otherwise without the gift horse sitting right in front of them and seeing everyone else benefit.

Stealing under such circumstances does not make it right but trying to root out everyone who might steal under such circumstances is counter productive imo

 

[mooseman17]

Im not saying there isn't a difference in poverty levels and extremes in different countries. What i am saying, is that it's a fruitless conversation. Things will always be better or worse somewhere else, so what is the point of comparing one's hell to another's? Why that hell exists, and why it's even consdiered a hell is going to depend on a lot of circumstances that don't all carry over to country and culture. And how to solve those issues will vary from city to city. So what's the point in making comparisons where the causes of poverty are wildly different?

The point I was trying to make is that we are actually afforded opportunities on this great continent of ours while other countries you don't get such a chance at all. So people should really take them.

I am not equating every person that lives in the hood as a gangster. But I am saying that most of them are from broken families. And that they are all surrounded by crime.

I think there is a bit of a difference between being an immigrant in the hood and a local. As the locals appear to have been indoctrinated and are most likely closer to accepting their current position in life as their final form as that is all they have known, while the immigrants can easily fall in the trap but also come into the county wide-eyed seeking opportunities and capitalize.

Many people are ignorant to the resources they have available. Many people don't know how to research. And where do you think someone with little education will learn to research about shelters and other things?

Honestly I wholeheartedly do. We are in the age of information at our fingertips. If you are smart enough to create a Twitter profile for shitposting and browse IG hoes all day, then you sure as hell are smart enough to look into resources. The issue is that people don't as they have accepted their fate. You can't make a horse drink the water.

And do you really think it's easy for an able bodied family to just move into shelters until they get on their feet? There's just places with free beds and food ready to go in mass?
How does someone with no money, living on government food stamps save up money to MOVE their family? They're living on welfare.
How do they even get to the library to do research? Many government facilities in low income areas have limited resources and aren't even in convenient locations. A trip to the library could be an 1 hour and a half bus ride. Who has time for that when they have 4 kids and a job?

You do it slowly but surely. Obviously sacrifices are going to be made AND that's the thing, it is NOT going to be convenient so people stop before they start. Are they on welfare or do they have a job, make up your mind. Honestly this sounds like excuses. Look, I'm sure it's hard for the family of 6, but one of the parents can stay at home. But what about the single people?

You are using extreme examples, where in the US are you residing that a library is 90 minutes away, other than maybe parts of Alaska or Hawaii? Definitely not in the city regarding this thread as they appear to have a beautiful library with a $76 million budget. Also if you are wearing Jordan's then you have a phone.

I think a lot of people don't know how to get out of their hole...we agree on that. But i don't believe the resources you mentioned are nearly as simple to get as you made them out to be..especially if you already have a kid.

Why not? Honestly, I'm sorry if I come off as preachy but I've had this same song and dance with quite a few of my friends that I grew up with and it's just excuse after excuse year after year. A lot of things can get done in 24 hours if you plan your day accordingly.

As far as baiting, i just meant what i hypothetically would be okay with. I don't know how they would bait for rape, but i know they have baited for murder. They would put up "hitman service " or something on Craigslist , and a jilted wife or husband would message them to try and get their spouse killed
Yeah now that you mentioned it I've actually heard of the hitman stuff.

If you are ever feeling down or lazy, or having trouble getting out of bed in the morning, I would suggest listening to some David Goggins speeches, he may be a bit crude but he's helped me get over a few phantom injuries at the gym.