Is this inconsistency in the Quran evidence that it is man made?

[meauneau]

translating from one ancient language to a completely other language always causes some debate and issues like this. but with a little common sense and discussion, it can be cleared up.

people are also called walis of allah. that doesn't mean they are his guardians but only that they stand up for the cause of god.

So almighty allah couldn't write a book in a way such that its meaning could be transmitted accurately from language to languag? What percentage of muslims are arabs? They are the minority I believe.

Regardless of this, the expert who translate it all coincide on the same translation.

 

[meauneau]

Even 9:74 and 9:116 use the same words: waliyyin wala naseer / protector or helper. All three verses translated the same by all translators.

What you want us to believe is that waliyyin wala naseer is undetermined as to its meaning both in arabic and english, and that the translators merely guesed, but it could mean god or lord. Is this right?

 

[tramendous]

Muslims can say what they want, but does it reconcile the verses? Do muslims have no other helper than allah or do angels also help muslims?

1) muslims have no protector or helper other than allah.
2) muslims have protectors other than allah (other muslims and angels)

Which is true 1 or 2. Both cannot be true.

3) muslims can have supporters other than allah.

I am using the same word. why you choose to use one meaning in different contexts when they don't apply, I'll leave for you to explain. thats the thing with translation, some words cannot be translated to another language with a word and other times they simply choose the closest word in that context.

 

[tramendous]

So almighty allah couldn't write a book in a way such that its meaning could be transmitted accurately from language to languag? What percentage of muslims are arabs? They are the minority I believe.

Regardless of this, the expert who translate it all coincide on the same translation.

its transmitted accurately you just have to use your 'Aql' عقل

 

[meauneau]

3) muslims can have supporters other than allah.

I am using the same word. why you choose to use one meaning in different contexts when they don't apply, I'll leave for you to explain. thats the thing with translation, some words cannot be translated to another language with a word and other times they simply choose the closest word in that context.

You are using the same word as what? Which meanings do you accuse me of switching from?

You merely changed waliyyin wala naseer to supporters rather than as the translators see it as protector and helper.

You also avoided my question: which is false 1 or 2?

Also, do you want us to believe that waliyyin wala naseer is undetermined as to its meaning both in arabic and english, and that the translators merely guesed, and that waliyyin and naseer could mean god or lord but we can't determine this?

 

[meauneau]

its transmitted accurately you just have to use your 'Aql' عقل

You said that you cannot translate completely from one language to another. So how is it transmitted accurately if the chain of transmissionis incomplete?

yes that is what it says in english.

What does it say in Arabic?

 

[tramendous]

You are using the same word as what? Which meanings do you accuse me of switching from?

You merely changed waliyyin wala naseer to supporters rather than as the translators see it as protector and helper.

You also avoided my question: which is false 1 or 2?

Also, do you want us to believe that waliyyin wala naseer is undetermined as to its meaning both in arabic and english, and that the translators merely guesed, and that waliyyin and naseer could mean god or lord but we can't determine this?

i didn't avoid your question. I answered it. just not in the multiple choice format you gave which doesn't contain the correct answer. If i say, is 2+2: A) 5 or B) 7.5 ? and you answer 4, you arent avoiding the question.

you are asking if Allah is the only protector or can others be your protector. the problem is that the word Wali/Auliya is different when god tells you he is your only Wali (protector) and when your friend says he is your Wali (friend). or when someone tells you Allah is your only Wali (protector) and then a guy tells you he is the Wali of this province (governor). There is no contradiction provided you understand the context.

 

[meauneau]

i didn't avoid your question. I answered it. just not in the multiple choice format you gave which doesn't contain the correct answer. If i say, is 2+2: A) 5 or B) 7.5 ? and you answer 4, you arent avoiding the question.

This shows that you didn't understand what I did. I asked for you to eliminate one sentence from a set of inconsistent sentences. I didn't ask a question with multiple choices.

you are asking if Allah is the only protector or can others be your protector. the problem is that the word Wali/Auliya is different when god tells you he is your only Wali (protector) and when your friend says he is your Wali (friend). or when someone tells you Allah is your only Wali (protector) and then a guy tells you he is the Wali of this province (governor). There is no contradiction provided you understand the context.

So the translators of the quran don't know the context? When it says that the angels will protect muslims what does it mean here?

Also, you agree that god is the protector of muslims. Do muslims protect one another? Remember that the verse says that there is no protector other than allah. And this is the translation the experts agree upon. If you disagree with them you better correct them, urge them to correct their translations.

 

[tramendous]

This shows that you didn't understand what I did. I asked for you to eliminate one sentence from a set of inconsistent sentences. I didn't ask a question with multiple choices.

i understand perfectly what you did. Either its A or B and it cannot be both A and B and choosing either A or B would contradict the quran. I presented you with C which correctly answers your question (which in of itself is incorrect)

So the translators of the quran don't know the context? When it says that the angels will protect muslims what does it mean here?

no the translators of the quran provide the best translation in their opinion. this is why multiple translations are not exactly the same. i.e.

Pickthall: Knowest thou not that it is Allah unto Whom belongeth the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth; and ye have not, beside Allah, any guardian or helper?

Yusuf Ali: Knowest thou not that to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth? And besides Him ye have neither patron nor helper.

Shakir: Do you not know that Allah's is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth, and that besides Allah you have no guardian or helper?

Muhammad Sarwar: Do you not know that the kingdom of the heavens and the earth belongs to God and that no one is your guardian or helper besides Him?

Mohsin Khan: Know you not that it is Allah to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth? And besides Allah you have neither any Wali (protector or guardian) nor any helper.


and now here is another verse with muslims being auliya or wali of one another:

Sahih International: The believing men and believing women are allies of one another. They enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and establish prayer and give zakah and obey Allah and His Messenger. Those - Allah will have mercy upon them. Indeed, Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.

Pickthall: And the believers, men and women, are protecting friends one of another; they enjoin the right and forbid the wrong, and they establish worship and they pay the poor-due, and they obey Allah and His messenger. As for these, Allah will have mercy on them. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Wise.

Yusuf Ali: The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil: they observe regular prayers, practise regular charity, and obey Allah and His Messenger. On them will Allah pour His mercy: for Allah is Exalted in power, Wise.

Shakir: And (as for) the believing men and the believing women, they are guardians of each other; they enjoin good and forbid evil and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Messenger; (as for) these, Allah will show mercy to them; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.

Muhammad Sarwar: The believers, both male and female, are each other's guardians. They try to make others do good, prevent them from committing sins, perform their prayers, pay the religious tax, and obey God and His Messenger. God will have mercy on them; He is Majestic and All-wise.

Mohsin Khan: The believers, men and women, are Auliya' (helpers, supporters, friends, protectors) of one another, they enjoin (on the people) Al-Ma'ruf (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam orders one to do), and forbid (people) from Al-Munkar (i.e. polytheism and disbelief of all kinds, and all that Islam has forbidden); they perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat) and give the Zakat, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah will have His Mercy on them. Surely Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise.

Arberry: And the believers, the men and the women, are friends one of the other; they bid to honour, and forbid dishonour; they perform the prayer, and pay the alms, and they obey God and His Messenger. Those -- upon them God will have mercy; God is All-mighty, All-wise.

Also, you agree that god is the protector of muslims. Do muslims protect one another? Remember that the verse says that there is no protector other than allah. And this is the translation the experts agree upon. If you disagree with them you better correct them, urge them to correct their translations.

we are going in circles again. the verse says there is no wali other than Allah. the word Wali can have multiple meanings based on the context. thus both I and God can say we are someone's Wali. I as in his Wali (friend) and Allah his Wali (protector) and then the can also say he is our Wali in this province (governor) and then another person says I am also your Wali (as in he is my son named Wali). why this is such a complicated thing to you I have no idea. It even exists in english. If I say "my lord" i could be talking about the judge in the courtroom, the lord in the castle or the Lord God. This is why both statements "there are 100 lords (nobles) and ladies in England" and "There is only one Lord (God)" can both be correct even without the brackets depending on the context.

 

[bigbangspiritbomb]

(4:82) If it [Qur'an] had been from [any] other than Allah, they would have found within it much contradiction.

1. (9:71) The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another.
2. (41:31) We (Angels) are your protectors in this life and in the Hereafter.
3. (2:107) Do you not know that... you have not besides Allah any protector or any helper?

Therefore the Qur'an is not from Allah?

But but Allah Akbar....

Spoiler

 

[Wyrm]

The only evidence that the koran is man made is that, wait for it, there is no fucking god....

 

[Denter]

So almighty allah couldn't write a book in a way such that its meaning could be transmitted accurately from language to languag? What percentage of muslims are arabs? They are the minority I believe.

Regardless of this, the expert who translate it all coincide on the same translation.

What makes you think it was meant to be fully understood by people who lack nuance?

 

[goldennirvana]

The Quran is the most bipolar book in history. Contradictions all over the place.

 

[Tycho- Taylor's Version]

Geez. The OP reminds me of this overly long and technical (read: nerd bait) article about the use of the word "fish" to describe the whale(!) in the Biblical story of Jonah - especially the first comment:

I used to be a fundamentalist, and it was this fish that first convinced me there could be mistakes in the Bible. Not because the whale isn’t really a fish, but because the Bible, going back to the earliest documents we have, is inconsistent about its gender. It uses the word three times: The fish (“dag,” masculine) swallowed Jonah, Jonah was inside the fish (“dag’ah,” feminine), and then Jonah was vomited up by the fish (masculine again).

Wikipedia told me that the Orthodox Jewish explanation is that there were multiple fish and Jonah got transferred into a larger and more comfortable one when he gained more faith. I concluded that hey, there can be typos in the Bible after all.
But now my favorite explanation is that the fish self-identified as having a fluid gender, and God decided to categorize by self-identification. Because that’s funnier.

Spoiler alert: the language and history of religious texts will always be fluid enough to allow for a backdoor escape from any proposed contradiction. Whether or not you ultimately find the contradictions you do settle with convincing is going to depend on a host of other influencing factors that are pressing your belief in one direction or the other.

Personally this isn't a factor I would spend too much time pondering. You might find that blog fun though @meauneau

 

[Thurisaz]

(4:82) If it [Qur'an] had been from [any] other than Allah, they would have found within it much contradiction.

1. (9:71) The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another.
2. (41:31) We (Angels) are your protectors in this life and in the Hereafter.
3. (2:107) Do you not know that... you have not besides Allah any protector or any helper?

Therefore the Qur'an is not from Allah?

Not to mention the satanic verses, which prove beyond any doubt that Muhammad could not distinguish Gabriel from Satan.

The book could be satanically inspired from start to finish and Mo would not know it. Judging from the fruit of that particular tree it obviously also is.

 

[The Beast Within]

idk but it's a pretty violent book....

Koran 2:191 "slay the unbelievers wherever you find them"
Koran 3:21 "Muslims must not take the infidels as friends"
Koran 5:33 "Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam"
Koran 8:12 "Terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Koran"
Koran 8:60 " Muslims must muster all weapons to terrorize the infidels"
Koran 8:65 "The unbelievers are stupid, urge all Muslims to fight them"
Koran 9:5 "When the opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you find them"
Koran 9:123 "Make war on the infidels living in your neighborhood"
Koran 22:19 "Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water, melt their skin and bellies"
Koran 47:4 "Do not hanker for peace with the infidels, behead them when you catch them".

 

[Thurisaz]

The only evidence that the koran is man made is that, wait for it, there is no fucking god....

Man, you really nailed them with your nonexistent evidence!

Nothing like statement of blind faith to cure what you think is blind faith.

 

[Wyrm]

Man, you really nailed them with your nonexistent evidence!

Nothing like statement of blind faith to cure what you think is blind faith.

Of course! Because saying that god does not exist is the exact same faith based statement as saying that there was this dude who resurrected after being dead for three days or that this other dude went to heavens on a winged horse!

Glad you set me straight there, chief...

 

[Thurisaz]

Of course! Because saying that god does not exist is the exact same faith based statement

You claimed evidence while having none, you stupid liar, which is why I exposed you.

Glad you set me straight there, chief...

No problem, I do this partly for fun and in part as a public service.

 

[Wyrm]

You claimed evidence while having none, you stupid liar, which is why I exposed you.


No problem, I do this partly for fun and in part as a public service.

The only thing you exposed is that you are a dumb fuck who believed the folk tales of bronze age shepherd tribes or the delusions of a 7th century warlord.

You can't really prove a negative but to even suggest that all the allegations made by the religious (from reincarnation to the 72 virgins) are equivalent to stating that there is no god, then you are a knuckle dragging taliban moron too afraid to come to terms that, yes, you will die some day, no one will eventually remember you, the only meaning in your life is provided by yourself and that we are irrelevant in this wonderfully cold and pitiless Universe...