Is this bad grappling etiquette? Tapping early

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Apple Lotion, Aug 15, 2010.

  1. Apple Lotion

    Apple Lotion White Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2010
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey guys I started MMA the other day (note: I weigh 310 pounds, I DO NOT want to be a fighter I just want to lose weight and learn) and the first thing I did was jump rope for a warm up. Then I put on boxing gloves and the coach that day taught me how to do a "1, 2" which is a left jab (1) and then a right straight (2) since I'm right handed. I'm clumsy so my technique is bad and my foot work is terrible but now that I know what I need to work on I finally understand why people shadowbox and how they do it because without any knowledge of boxing I never knew how someone could picture themselves punching the air, but they're saying in their head different combinations.

    Now that I got that out of the way let me tell you where I think I went wrong. I was watching some of the guys grapple and what I noticed alot of these guys who get caught in chokes or locks don't tap immeditally, even when they're just sitting there in the lock or choke. It's like they wait 10-15 seconds inside of a choke or lock and then tap just to give the guy who caught them some respect for catching them so they let him have the pleasure of locking in a long submission. Often times these guys who get caught are laying down on the mat for 30 seconds or so recovering.

    Someone asked me if I wanted to roll I said yeah so we started on our knees and grappled, he got the take down and pretty much dominated me. Well, I struggled for a long time and he eventually got ahold of my arm and was trying to pull my arm out for an arm bar. I knew for a fact I could not get out of this, he had me on the mat, my body wasn't going anywhere and he really wanted this arm bar. So I tapped befor he pulled my arm out and locked his arm bar in. At the time I didn't see the point if I gave him my arm I was gonna tap anyways and I knew there was no chance for me to escape so I went ahead and tapped while he was jerking to pull my arm out. Afterwards I rolled 2 other times, once I got caught in an arm triangle I let the guy have it for a few seconds befor tapping and the next I got caught in an Americana which I didn't tap until I felt pain. After coming home and thinking about my first day of MMA I felt bad for the guy who practically had me in an bar and I tapped befor he could have the pleasure of locking it in and atleast working on his technique. I don't think I left a bad impression but I certainly don't wanna leave one.

    Would you wanna roll with someone who tapped early? After my first roll (remember I rolled 3 times total) my 2nd and 3rd ones were really half ass. I was so tired that I really didn't put up much of an effort off my back because I don't really know much besides some stuff in the guard. After my 3rd roll I told the guy "I was tired and nice job" which seemed like an excuse that took away from his submission but I was just giving him an excuse to why I was so lazy off my back that time. Would you roll with someone who didn't challenge you? Someone who just laid there while you worked around them easily? I'm 310 so I expect some sympathy but at the same time this is a sport and I should atleast be willing to work even when being dominated and show some heart.

    Can you guys give me tips on keeping a good attitude and etiquette?
     
  2. VoodooPlata

    VoodooPlata Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2009
    Messages:
    2,532
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    A sparkling socialist paradise
    Unless you have pains somewhere, you shouldn't tap early. It's not about "pleasure", however. There are two good reasons for not tapping early:

    1. Subs are subtle. You need to let the guy learn how it feels when it works, and how it feels when he's just squeezing but nothing's happening. Therefore, you should only tap once you feel the sub is really on.

    2. A lot of things happen during submission attempts. The guy could really suck at his armbar "endgame" because all his training partners tap early. Conversely, you might get out of the sub at the last moment.

    Don't wait until it hurts, but until you are completely sure that you can't get out and that the sub will work. This helps your partners learn.

    Welcome to MMA!
     
  3. Hinakuluiau

    Hinakuluiau White Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2010
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    in a mittin
    IMO, first one does seem like you tapped early. But it was your first time rolling. Third time, you probably let it go a little to long. You should tap when you feel discomfort, depending on the hold, and how much experience you have.

    I alway try to work out of a submission first but if they have me beat, I tap. The only exception I have to this rule is leg locks. If I get caught in a leg lock, I tap right away. I've heard to many bad stories about people's legs getting pop because they didn't tap right away. I also don't have the best knees in the world so I tap to avoid any further damage.

    You need to tap before you feel pain, because pain MAY equal damage. Always try to defend a submission, if it doesn't work, tap before you get hurt. If you don't know any defense, ask the person that you are rolling with to show you some defense for that submission.
     
  4. lechien

    lechien Gold Belt

    Joined:
    May 9, 2007
    Messages:
    16,208
    Likes Received:
    1,284
    If you are a newbie, you have to and should tap early.

    There is nothing wrong about tapping early.

    After 3-6 months of solid rolling, I would expect you to increase your knowledge of submission defenses.

    But until then, train smart, tap to train another day...tapping is learning.

    \P.s do not make excuse or chat around when rolling or after tapping, people hate that.
     
  5. XTrainer

    XTrainer Red Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2006
    Messages:
    7,898
    Likes Received:
    3
    Yes, it is bad etiquette. By tapping early, you're stealing part of the experience of jiu-jitsu from your partner. There's a HUGE difference between an almost-locked-in-kinda-looks-like-an-armbar, and a truly sunken and debilitating armbar. You'll never learn the difference if your partners tap early--essentially tapping to the threat of submission, rather than the technique itself. Totally rude.

    While we're on this topic, you know what's even worse than tapping early? Tapping because of fatigue. If you're not in good enough shape to win, take your medicine like a man, and keep fighting until you do in fact get beaten by a submission. Not only is this the polite thing to do, it is a corrective mechanism: Your conditioning will improve if you push yourself in training.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2010
  6. SKizzit**

    SKizzit** Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2009
    Messages:
    1,620
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Las Cruces NM
    I tapped early to the first armbar I got put in, I was worried about getting my arm broken. I don't think it is as big of a deal as some of you are saying for a newbie like me. If you keep progressing in skill but keep tapping before your even in the submission that is something different.
     
  7. Mike Wilson Jr.

    Mike Wilson Jr. Amateur Fighter

    Joined:
    May 13, 2008
    Messages:
    6,361
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    Long Beach, CA
    ^ Agreed on both points.

    Dont EVER be the guy who taps to a position, or because youre tired. If you think its cool to do that, take up ballet or something...
     
  8. TheIronGiraffe

    TheIronGiraffe Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2009
    Messages:
    480
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Tap when you feel in danger. I've tapped when people were going for an armbar from mount and I knew they had momentum going into it because of the transition and I've fought a locked up arm bar. It just depends on what you're comfortable with. My advise is don't just give up. For example, if someone passes your guard don't resign yourself to hald or side mount, fight back to your guard. Just like submissions, try and fight through them but never at the expense of your body.
     
  9. yovan

    yovan Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2008
    Messages:
    1,508
    Likes Received:
    27
    Location:
    Raleigh, NC
    I'm of the opinion you should tap whenever you want. Tapping just from position is pretty lame though.

    But as far as subs, it's whatever you feel comfortable with. If your partner has a problem with you tapping early he'll find other partners.

    Sometimes brand new guys tap early because they're so unsure of the threshold. It's perfectly fine and okay.

    The more you train, the more you'll find your way.
     
  10. Dead Roman

    Dead Roman Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2010
    Messages:
    487
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    pearland TX
    depends on who you are training with. Some guys really yank subs in and dont give you much of a chance to tap. personally, I like it up and gently apply pressure untill the other guy taps. There is a guy at our school who will armbar the shit out of you if you arent careful. If he gets the arm and I cant defend I usually tap well before he extends it, he popped my elbow once and theres really no need to endure that kind of punishment in training.
     
  11. platfox

    platfox Silver Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2008
    Messages:
    10,177
    Likes Received:
    39
    Location:
    On the long road.
    I have to admit I've done this a couple times but I will never cardio tap unless I'm in a dominant position. If I'm in someone's guard or on bottom, I won't tap. Usually only right after I sink hooks in or get mount, and I stop immediately, not after 2 minutes of trying to finish and failing.

    But in theory, I agree. I don't like cardio taps and try not to use them.

    What gets me annoyed is when a bigger guy spazzes for 2-3 minutes, gasses out and then cardio taps right when I sweep him.
     
  12. tim18t

    tim18t Blue Belt

    Joined:
    May 6, 2008
    Messages:
    643
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Illinois
    I'll tap early on occasion, when I know I'm dead in the water. Typically or almost always this is when I'm rolling with much bigger guys and they have something locked in but not fully extended.

    I'd never tap early to any type of choke, just joint locks in the above mentioned circumstances.
     
  13. Toastytoy

    Toastytoy Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2008
    Messages:
    3,718
    Likes Received:
    1,211
    Location:
    Chicago
    [​IMG]





    but to answer your question, yes its kinda bad form. For one it is possible to get out of armbars and chokes when they are sunk in (or almost sunk in), and it shows a lack of heart and makes you seem lazy and like you dont care about grappling when you tap really early.
     
  14. Q mystic

    Q mystic Silver Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2005
    Messages:
    14,174
    Likes Received:
    4
    Tap early all you like. No harm done. Its fine and you are still respected by vets. Theres more than enuff scrappy to cater to fellas.

    I tap early plenty for many reasons. I usually apologize cuz there is a reason that I dont want to have to explain and they always seem fine with it. Thats good etiquette.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2010
  15. Kenny from MD

    Kenny from MD Less angry than before.

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2007
    Messages:
    2,791
    Likes Received:
    564
    Location:
    Maryland
    Well in your post one of the first things you say is that you dont want to be a fighter. As a hobbyist, just do whatever feels right because you arent taking it that seriously. Not an insult either, just know that what you put in is what you take out. Also, its worth mentioning that it being your first time ever training, it would be pretty silly to expect you to understand an armbar escape, so at this point you didnt do anything detrimental. What I am speaking of is in the future if you wish to pursue grappling consistently and take it seriously.

    If you wish to compete on a real level and get to an elite level of competition.. (world champion NOT intermediate NAGA champ) you need to fight your ass off which includes fighting tooth and nail to the end, running off the mat to avoid being swept, falling into the wall and yes, occasionally getting hurt in the process. Its hard work and it sucks, but if you want real results, you kill yourself on the mats for them. Im sure plenty of people will disagree with me and chime in with comments about that being a reckless thing to say or "well I compete four times a year and I train safe wah wah wah" but they won
     
  16. HotViolence

    HotViolence White Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2010
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Vancouver
    i've said "okay i can't do this anymore" twice before not from subs, but once from a guy 5 inches taller and 110 pounds heavier crushing the shit out of my ribs and kidneys with a body triangle which made the lunch i had about 3 hours earlier start to come up and again today because of heat + drinking last night + intense rolling = upset stomach, i only stopped when i got to mount, and once i couldn't keep the bile from creeping up my throat

    i don't think there's much wrong with tapping early, some people have messed up shoulders/ankles/knees whatever, i dont tap until i know i can't get out of it, and i've very nearly been choked out trying to escape sometimes, tap early if you want, no ones gonna get really butthurt over it. Just don't be the guy who taps and says he's gassed once he gets swept, then comes back 30 seconds later, you sweep him, he says he's gassed, then comes back again, that's annoying
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2010
  17. adoniscomplex

    adoniscomplex Orange Belt

    Joined:
    May 26, 2007
    Messages:
    252
    Likes Received:
    1
    id rather have a noobie tap early then spazz out personally
    i dont see an issue with it
     
  18. Anett

    Anett White Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2010
    Messages:
    39
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    BC
    I was the same as you when I first started training, I'd just tap when I assumed I couldn't get out even if maybe it was possible to get out. But then again there's the other side to this because if you dont tap when your feeling pain fast enough you may get injured
     
  19. Shulom1***

    Shulom1*** Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2010
    Messages:
    1,597
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Iowa
    honestly, I have never not felt the pain of a submission. Maybe things that would definitely kill if torqued like a TDWL.

    I have tapped when I couldnt get out of something before. Like the time someone had my back and put on a RNC, while I had the in a shin lock.
     
  20. redaxe

    redaxe Silver Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2008
    Messages:
    10,166
    Likes Received:
    24
    just tap when you know you are caught and cannot escape the submission. you don't have to wait until it hurts. with an armbar it is ok to tap before they extend the arm because once the arm is locked out the pain and injury can come on real fast.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.