Is there any bias against no-gi grapplers?

[JerseyTrash]

I used to wrestle in HS, and am a Blue in both. Though I hate the Gi, oh so much. As it hinders me and helps the other guys out all the time. It's like having a friend, who you go to the bar with, and when a fight starts, he always helps out the other guys.

It sounds like you just have no idea what you're doing. If both of you are wearing gis, then it doesn't "hinder you and help the other guy." You're both even, with neither having an advantage or disadvantage.

 

[ASMBJJ]

Anybody who says you need to train in a gi to be good at no gi is very misinformed. Look at Josh Barnett. Dude just won a world jiu jitsu championship. Having said that, training in the gi makes you slow your game down and forces you to be more technical. Some people simply don't have the control to do that without the gi. So in summary, I think its good to train in the gi, but not necessary.

 

[georgejjr]

Yes, and their background is something else. They just train enough jiu jitsu for defense and things like that, IE strikers who trained some grappling.

That certainly seems to be true - at least I can't think of anyone off hand who became an excellent no-gi only (as in never does gi) grappler who didn't have a wrestling background (judo and sambo have gi's). There doesn't seem to be anyone who did it just by doing pure sub grappling.

 

[lechien]

I have no a single freaking idea why people called it NOGI.

What about just calling it submission wrestling or submission grappling instead?

As soonest you use the word NOGI, people feels oblige to compare to BJJ GI.

Mind you, if I take my GI off, I am still doing BJJ and still follow BJJ competition rules.

I have no idea the reason why suddenly guys which are not qualified in BJJ decided to create their own little NOGI league and hellhook and neckcrank each other for fun.

Maybe I should just use Cesar Gracie Terminology = Giless.

and leave the NOGI terminology to the guys that did not want to spend 10 years on the mats training BJJ GI.

 

[JerseyTrash]

That certainly seems to be true - at least I can't think of anyone off hand who became an excellent no-gi only (as in never does gi) grappler who didn't have a wrestling background (judo and sambo have gi's). There doesn't seem to be anyone who did it just by doing pure sub grappling.

Exactly. Almost everyone who disagreed with me in this thread went on to point out a bunch of Division 1 all Americans as some sort of "proof" how you can become great in no gi. I don't know of a single person who only trained no gi (ie never a wrestler) who went on to become black belt level in submission wrestling, by ONLY training no gi submission wrestling (not someone with 20 years of freestyle under their belt).

 

[Andrew Green]

Exactly. Almost everyone who disagreed with me in this thread went on to point out a bunch of Division 1 all Americans as some sort of "proof" how you can become great in no gi. I don't know of a single person who only trained no gi (ie never a wrestler) who went on to become black belt level in submission wrestling, by ONLY training no gi submission wrestling (not someone with 20 years of freestyle under their belt).

But wrestling doesn't use a gi... So how does that change them out of being "no-gi" trained?

Honestly we are seeing a sport split. Submission grappling is new, its going to take a while before the top guys in it are guys that started in it. If you where to look at the number of schools that have done exclusively submission grappling I doubt you would find many that have been around for more then 10 years. So chances are most people that have been training seriously for much more then that started in wrestling, BJJ, Judo or some other style of wrestling.

My guess would be that as submission grappling grows the top competitors will end up being guys that have trained specifically in submission grappling for 15-20 years. Right now those people are rare though.

 

[JerseyTrash]

But wrestling doesn't use a gi... So how does that change them out of being "no-gi" trained?

Honestly we are seeing a sport split. Submission grappling is new, its going to take a while before the top guys in it are guys that started in it. If you where to look at the number of schools that have done exclusively submission grappling I doubt you would find many that have been around for more then 10 years. So chances are most people that have been training seriously for much more then that started in wrestling, BJJ, Judo or some other style of wrestling.

My guess would be that as submission grappling grows the top competitors will end up being guys that have trained specifically in submission grappling for 15-20 years. Right now those people are rare though.

Maybe you haven't been following the thread, but you missed the point. My emphasis isn't on the physical gi itself, but the fact that most people who only train no gi are TUF fans who think they're going to be pro fighters. I've never seen anyone show up to ONLY no gi classes and last for more than a few months.

Wrestlers do well because they've already started with X amount of years of prior grappling experience, the athleticism wrestling takes, plus the work ethic it instills.

 

[Vector_X]

most people who only train no gi are TUF fans who think they're going to be pro fighters. I've never seen anyone show up to ONLY no gi classes and last for more than a few months.

I hate to agree with this because it seems just harsh, but I can't think of a single instance either where someone would just stick with nogi only and last. The comment about the TUF thing also sadly seems to hold a lot of truth behind it.

 

[fourfif**]

Maybe you haven't been following the thread, but you missed the point. My emphasis isn't on the physical gi itself, but the fact that most people who only train no gi are TUF fans who think they're going to be pro fighters. I've never seen anyone show up to ONLY no gi classes and last for more than a few months.

Wow man, I've trained gi/no gi and this hasn't been my experience at all.

It's an unnecessarily negative and frankly idiotic overgeneralization.

At Fairtex yeah, alot of them were fighters, so they were training for mma and often were training for upcoming amateur fights (the coach fought in WEC, so he's obviously a pro) and I'm sure they all had ambitions of fighting pro someday. So what does that mean? TheY're assholes? Meatheads? Jerks? Who the he'll are you to judge? What's your point? Shit these guys where all educated and some had careers and families.

You don't ever watch tuf? And really, who gives a shit if you do? Moreover, I'm just a recreational player, and they were all super chill, easy going, humble guys. Same thing with 10p, no "hey bro" attitude, just people who love to roll. The only gym I ever got that vibe at was a traditional gi bjj gym. I still love the place, it was fun too, but the point is stop being so closed minded.

And people in this thread have objected to calling it BJJ. Now its complaining about people calling it nogi. Just for that I'm referring to it as NOGI BJJ in every post.

 

[JerseyTrash]

Wow man, I've trained gi/no gi and this hasn't been my experience at all.

It's an unnecessarily negative and frankly idiotic overgeneralization.

At Fairtex yeah, alot of them where fighters, so they were training for mma and often were training for upcoming amateur fights (the coach fought in WEC, so he's obviously a pro) and I'm sure they all had ambitions of fighting pro someday. I'm just a recreational player, and they were all super chill, easy going, humble guys. Same thing with 10p, no "hey bro" attitude, just people who love to roll. The only gym I ever got that vibe at was a traditional gi bjj gym. I still love the place, it was fun too, but the point is stop being so closed minded.

And people in this thread have objected to calling it BJJ. Now its complaining about people calling it nogi. Just for that I'm referring to it as NOGI BJJ in every post.

I've trained at several academies. A lot of the time the no gi classes are full of normal students who do both. I train no gi sometimes. Its fun. People who ONLY train no gi however tend to not last. They tend to have some sort of aspirations to kick people's asses, think they're going to be a pro fighter before they've stepped on the mat once, and look down on the gi as outdated and "gay". They love Tapout gear, have lots of shitty tattoos, and have "extreme" haircuts like Dan Hardy. I don't doubt that its possible to go on to have great success if you only train no gi. The personality type that shuns the gi though doesn't last. I'm waiting to be proven wrong, but the so far the results of just about every major grappling competition are on my side.

 

[Andrew Green]

Maybe you haven't been following the thread, but you missed the point. My emphasis isn't on the physical gi itself, but the fact that most people who only train no gi are TUF fans who think they're going to be pro fighters. I've never seen anyone show up to ONLY no gi classes and last for more than a few months.

Wrestlers do well because they've already started with X amount of years of prior grappling experience, the athleticism wrestling takes, plus the work ethic it instills.

That I don't buy on, mainly because I run a school that never uses gis and just don't see that.

The gi being a physical object is a important, and the guys that started playing around at home and with friends are obviously not going to go out and buy a $150 gi to train in when it doesn't even suit what they perceive as their goals. So anyone that has been wrestling a little with other guys that don't know what they are doing and from hat think they should be heading into MMA fights right away given how well they've been doing on their own is going to have done no-gi. And as soon as they realize the workout is tough and they really don't have any skills yet they often quit.

It's also a piece of equipment that is not a part of what they want to do. They want to train in submission grappling, wrestling, kickboxing, etc. Doing the same sort of training they see on TV, and working on the same skills they see on televised events.

To be honest, you aren't giving them the sport they are looking for if you are trying to push them into BJJ anyways. They came in because they wanted to learn MMA. Chances are a good number will quit because its hard, but for the guys that do come in specifically wanting MMA, if they don't find what they where looking for chances are they won't stay.

If I where wanting to play hockey and showed up and got handed a pair of figure skates and a funny uniform and told I have to learn figure skating first as it will make my skating more technical... well, I wouldn't last long.

But that's what a lot of BJJ schools seem to do. Guys come in wanting MMA and they say "yeah, yeah, we do that" and hand them different gear, and give them different rules then what they wanted to learn.

From my perspective I could infer that things are the opposite. For the most part the guys that care about gis and belts don't last long. Anyone that comes in with a goal of getting a belt and wearing a fancy uniform, just don't stay longer then a few months. Which is fair, we don't do those things.

 

[redaxe]

Almost every guy you named was primarily a wrestler who learned submissions later. All you did was prove my point.

Oh, I see what you mean now. I didn't realize you meant guys who have ONLY done no-gi sub grappling and never wrestled before. In that case, you're right, I can't think of any good ones either. All the good no-gi grapplers either have gi BJJ or wrestling experience, or are primarily strikers who added no-gi MMA grappling to round out their game.

 

[JerseyTrash]

That I don't buy on, mainly because I run a school that never uses gis and just don't see that.

The gi being a physical object is a important, and the guys that started playing around at home and with friends are obviously not going to go out and buy a $150 gi to train in when it doesn't even suit what they perceive as their goals. So anyone that has been wrestling a little with other guys that don't know what they are doing and from hat think they should be heading into MMA fights right away given how well they've been doing on their own is going to have done no-gi. And as soon as they realize the workout is tough and they really don't have any skills yet they often quit.

It's also a piece of equipment that is not a part of what they want to do. They want to train in submission grappling, wrestling, kickboxing, etc. Doing the same sort of training they see on TV, and working on the same skills they see on televised events.

To be honest, you aren't giving them the sport they are looking for if you are trying to push them into BJJ anyways. They came in because they wanted to learn MMA. Chances are a good number will quit because its hard, but for the guys that do come in specifically wanting MMA, if they don't find what they where looking for chances are they won't stay.

If I where wanting to play hockey and showed up and got handed a pair of figure skates and a funny uniform and told I have to learn figure skating first as it will make my skating more technical... well, I wouldn't last long.

But that's what a lot of BJJ schools seem to do. Guys come in wanting MMA and they say "yeah, yeah, we do that" and hand them different gear, and give them different rules then what they wanted to learn.

From my perspective I could infer that things are the opposite. For the most part the guys that care about gis and belts don't last long. Anyone that comes in with a goal of getting a belt and wearing a fancy uniform, just don't stay longer then a few months. Which is fair, we don't do those things.

For one thing, I'm talking about no gi submission wrestling. I'm still waiting to see anyone do well in any major competition who has trained ONLY no gi (and didn't wrestle).

The only people who come even remotely close are the Japanese pro wrestler/catch wrestling guys. That's catch wrestling though, which is a completely different art. Ironically, Sakuraba eventually trained in the gi when he trained with Chute Boxe. I'm waiting for this batch of guys who are going to clean up ADCC or the Pan Am no gis/World no gis who have never trained with the gi OR wrestled.

 

[Andrew Green]

For one thing, I'm talking about no gi submission wrestling. I'm still waiting to see anyone do well in any major competition who has trained ONLY no gi (and didn't wrestle).

The only people who come even remotely close are the Japanese pro wrestler/catch wrestling guys. That's catch wrestling though, which is a completely different art. Ironically, Sakuraba eventually trained in the gi when he trained with Chute Boxe. I'm waiting for this batch of guys who are going to clean up ADCC or the Pan Am no gis/World no gis who have never trained with the gi OR wrestled.

So what you want is someone that competes in submission grappling. But hasn't done Catch, wrestling, Sambo, or really anything else other then BJJ, competing under BJJ rules, training at a BJJ gym, under a BJJ instructor, but skipping any class that used a gi?

BTW - why exclude wrestling? If BJJ is a good entry point into no-gi, why not wrestling? They don't wear gis and have shown that you can get very good and be very technically sound without ever putting on one.

 

[JerseyTrash]

So what you want is someone that competes in submission grappling. But hasn't done Catch, wrestling, Sambo, or really anything else other then BJJ, competing under BJJ rules, training at a BJJ gym, under a BJJ instructor, but skipping any class that used a gi?

BTW - why exclude wrestling? If BJJ is a good entry point into no-gi, why not wrestling? They don't wear gis and have shown that you can get very good and be very technically sound without ever putting on one.

Because 99% of "no gi" is taught/practiced at BJJ schools. The only other places are at MMA schools, which are still almost always taught by BJJ instructors, who trained in the gi their entire life, ie Vinny Magalhaes teaching at the Tapout gym.

 

[fourfif**]

BTW - why exclude wrestling? If BJJ is a good entry point into no-gi, why not wrestling? They don't wear gis and have shown that you can get very good and be very technically sound without ever putting on one.

WRESTLING IS AWESOME AND EVERYONE AND THEIR KIDS SHOULD DO IT :icon_chee





edit: Funny thing about this video..... watch Randy Couture get thrown for a 5 pointer at 2:00! Classic. He actually came back and scored the next four points. Still lost of course, because 5 > 4.

.

 

[fourfif**]

Because 99% of "no gi" is taught/practiced at BJJ schools. The only other places are at MMA schools, which are still almost always taught by BJJ instructors, who trained in the gi their entire life, ie Vinny Magalhaes teaching at the Tapout gym.

The gi is aweome bro. I bet you sleep with yours because it's so fuckin awesome.

LOL.... seriously gi bjj, and ONLY gi bjj, is super awesome to the max, and teh best!!1.

 

[redaxe]

So what you want is someone that competes in submission grappling. But hasn't done Catch, wrestling, Sambo, or really anything else other then BJJ, competing under BJJ rules, training at a BJJ gym, under a BJJ instructor, but skipping any class that used a gi?

Yes, because his point is that the guys who fit the above description all basically suck at grappling, and he's right. You either need gi experience or wrestling experience to be successful in grappling competition.

 

[JerseyTrash]

The gi is aweome bro. I bet you sleep with yours because it's so fuckin awesome. LOL.... seriously it's super awesome to the max, and teh best!!1.

I'm still waiting to see all kinds of examples of people who have amazing no gi grappling credentials under their belt that never trained in the gi/weren't wrestlers.

 

[redaxe]

The gi is aweome bro. I bet you sleep with yours because it's so fuckin awesome. LOL.... seriously it's super awesome to the max, and teh best!!1.

fourfif, he's actually proving your point (wrestling is awesome) and agreeing with you in a way too. He's saying that guys who ONLY do "no-gi" and NEITHER wrestle NOR train in the gi, suck.

Think about it, everyone who's been successful in no-gi grappling tournaments is either a wrestler or a (gi) BJJ guy.