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Is the shoulder-roll turning your back on your opponent?

Discussion in 'Boxing Discussion' started by Kaioken x 10, Jul 22, 2010.

  1. Kaioken x 10

    Kaioken x 10 Brown Belt

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    After a sparring session at the local boxing gym a few days ago, I was talking to an old-school boxing trainer (probably in his 70's) and he mentioned that I turned my back on my opponent a couple times. I know I didn't turn my back in a conventional sense, but I did use a few shoulder rolls. And I know, in a lot of sports, as years go on, the rules get bent further and further (basketball has almost become a contact sport; golf "woods" are made of steel; helmet-to-helmet tackles are probably more commonly seen than not in football), and it got me wondering, is the shoulder-roll one of those things? should it be considered turning your back on your opponent?


    Here's a video that highlights Floyd Mayweather's defensive skills, and in the first 40 seconds or so, it shows almost all shoulder rolls. If you'll notice, many times, his back is literally turned, which is kind of what makes it so difficult to hit him.



    Now, I don't want this to become a thread about how good Mayweather is or isn't. I just want to get your opinions on the technique.

    Would it have been considered back-turning 50 years ago?
    Should it be considered such nowadays?
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2010
  2. MC Paul Barman

    MC Paul Barman Gold Belt Platinum Member

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    Good thread - I like the topic.

    I was thinking about this too a bit back.
    When some guys do their shoulder roll it's as if they're protecting themselves by turning/twisting too far around. So that any hittable area is turned (close to completely) away from their opponent.

    I feel the same way about boxers dipping and bending below their opponent's waist - it's setting up a situation where the one trying to punch has really nothing to aim at and I don't see how that's fair.

    I think Ward did that alot with Kessler and Green.
    Then there's Raheem v Morales where you have Raheem well below Morales waist, just swinging from side to side.

    But that's aside from Kaioken's question.
     
  3. TheRatman

    TheRatman Brown Belt

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    I don't it is illegal as long as the fighter doesn't turn his feet away from his opponent. If his feet are still facing his opponent and he just turn his shoulder then I am ok it with but it is questionable as well as bending below the waist.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2010
  4. MeBig

    MeBig Brown Belt

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    Good thread, and good response MCPB. I don't think that what he's doing in the vid is or should be illegal but you're right there are situations where bending down and to the side becomes turning your back and some fighters do tend to take advantage of this positionl. Other times fighters will dip down and start turning their head away as soon as they see a punch coming, only to cry the whole fight about getting hit in the back of the head.
     
  5. chino0503

    chino0503 Black Belt

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    shoulder rolling involves you slightly moving to have a persons punch slide off your shoulder, or connect with your shoulder instead of the chin.

    the thing is alot of people turn their backs on their opponents (which is a big no no). note that punching to the back is illegal. so its not like they can just wail on your back.

    what shoulder rolling does is make you a smaller target by literally making your opponents target sideways and then only being able to hit you from a certain angle (cause hitting the back is illegal)

    thats why fighters like maywaether can read what someone is gonna throw. you got so few options to attack when someone is shoulder rolling. jab, right hand over the top (which is the punch a shoulder roller wants you to throw cause of the counter right), right hook to the body (the side thats open but also cutting it close cause its illegal to attack the back. so you have a small window), left hook to the body/head (easiest punch to land on a shoulder roller but it is also the strong side of the def).

    anyways. turning your back ISNT shoulder rolling.

    btw. shoulder rolling is a OLD SCHOOL technique. all the old school greats did it. i honestly feel like its a lost technique. so many fighters do it nowadays... but they use it to look fancy and as a defensive move. old school fighters punished people while they shoulder rolled. only a few modern day fighters can really be offensive with it. fighters like james toney and floyd mayweather are the best at it. imho james toney is THE best at it. he dont run or hold, he stays in the pocket and punishes people with his shoulder roll. sorry for ranting... i shoulder roll all the time :)
     
  6. MC Paul Barman

    MC Paul Barman Gold Belt Platinum Member

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    Kaioken,
    is that Acelino Freitas in your AV?
     
  7. chino0503

    chino0503 Black Belt

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    so if you're turning your back while you're shoulder rolling... you're doing it wrong. the farthest you should go is sideways.
     
  8. MC Paul Barman

    MC Paul Barman Gold Belt Platinum Member

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    I don't disagree...
    but don't you think alot of guys (Toney, Floyd), while doing it, do tend to twist too far around?
    I might be recalling it wrong - but I think I've seen that happen before. Where you're like "come on, ref!! What can the opponent do??"
     
  9. enswell****

    enswell**** Blue Belt

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    Crack him as hard as you can in the f*<kin kidneys and short ribs when he shows his back.

    "Protect yourself at all times" is a cardinal rule of boxing, and if a man shows his back, hit him there. Hit him there enough, and he won't do it again.

    I think the same way about idiots that present the back of their head to the opponent making it a target, then whine and cry to the ref when the opponent hits them there.

    "Protect yourself at all times."

    Yes it's a foul and he's not allowed to hit you there, but you're still not supposed to present that as a target, you [email protected]$$.
    You're setting yourself up to get hurt...and even if the ref takes a point, you still took a heavy shot to a vulnerable area which can affect you in the rest of the fight.

    Dirrell pulled that bull$#!t against Froch, presenting the back of his head to Froch time and time again, then whine and cry when he'd get hit there.

    Berto pulled the same $#!t against Quintana.

    [email protected]$$es.

    "Protect yourself at all times."


    It's p#$$y $#!t to do, for a fighter to whine to the ref after presenting your back as a target and getting hit for your carelessness; take matters into your own hands and protect yourself.

    Not what you expect out of world-class fighters.
     
  10. TheRatman

    TheRatman Brown Belt

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    But you shouldn't have to break the rules, enswell. If the are tuning the back or bending low then the ref should be the one enforcing the rule and takeing points.
     
  11. enswell****

    enswell**** Blue Belt

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    This ain't amateur boxing where the ref enforces every little rule; this is the pros.

    Using the shoulders in close is part of the game in the pros too.

    If a man hits you low, maybe you let him get away with the 1st one.
    If he does it again though (or even tries to do it again), you should hit him back low immediately as hard and as quickly as you can.

    That straitens mother-f*<kers out.
     
  12. chino0503

    chino0503 Black Belt

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    oh yeah. not everyone is perfect. but you will notice they cant do squat when they do turn too much.

    most of their best counters are when they are sideways or alittle squared up. when you turn to much you gotta make up for wasted movement and usually they're too slow to the punch.
     
  13. enswell****

    enswell**** Blue Belt

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    McDuck, help me out here.

    Is it or is it not pussy shit to show the back of your head to your opponent, then whine and cry to the ref when you get hit there?

    "Protect yourself at all times" is what I believe in.
     
  14. chino0503

    chino0503 Black Belt

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    most recent example i can think of is the dirrell froch fight... i mean... if you're showing the back of your head to your opponent, expect it to get punched.
     
  15. TheRatman

    TheRatman Brown Belt

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    Ok Enswell, I see your point in to return the foul but most the time it the one that returns the foul that get the point taken away.

    I talking about Roy Jones vs Hopkins 2. Hopkins repeated hit jones in the back of the head and when jones did it back the ref took a point.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2010
  16. chino0503

    chino0503 Black Belt

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    ahah thats cause hopkins knows how to clean up his dirty work.
     
  17. Kaioken x 10

    Kaioken x 10 Brown Belt

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    Lots of good replies here. Thanks a lot guys.

    My view is basically that the technique itself isn't and shouldn't be illegal, but in some cases, fighters take it too far. When you're putting yourself in such a position where the only way your opponent can hit you is if they're hitting you in the back or the back of the head, it's basically the same as turning your back, and should be treated as so by the referee --- especially if you complain about getting hit illegally, when you're the one who presented your back/back of the head.

    And it's the same with dipping down. Dipping down and coming right back up in order to actually dodge a punch is fine in my opinion. But when you stay down low just for the sake of being so low that you can't be hit, it's not exactly fair.

    ha, that really does look like him, I never noticed that. No, it's actually Paulo Thiago.
     
  18. Lazy Man

    Lazy Man Heavyweight Champion of the World

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    And hopkins rolled on the ground and cried
     
  19. mschatz

    mschatz Hamma: I has it

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    I'm with ya, Enswell. Just because the ref SHOULD prevent it from happening doesn't mean that he will. Nor do we (the viewers) necessarily want him to be breaking up and calling fighters on every little thing.
     
  20. MC Paul Barman

    MC Paul Barman Gold Belt Platinum Member

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    For Halloween Thiago should go as Freitas :)

    Good post though.
    Like seeing stuff like this in this forum.
     

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