Is the ""different era" the biggest excuse ever for GOAT contenders?

[ferrisjso]

Enjoy some facts. Below is a list of former UFC champions that lost their championship, and never regained it again, at the age of 33 or younger.

Nog, Cain, JDS, Mir, Sylvia, Arlovski, Barnett, Tito, Rashad, Machida, Rampage, Wanderlei, Shogun, Franklin, Weidman, Rockhold, GSP (WW), Hughes, Hendricks, Lawler, Condit, BJ, Frankie, Benson, Pettis, RDA, Alvarez, Conor, Aldo, Cruz, Barao, Faber, and Mighty Mouse

Guys that win or retain championships in their late 30s are an anomaly. There's like 6 of them in the history of our sport. The norm is guys win championships in their 20s and then lose it in their early 30s.

Losing a belt doesn't make you washed up though. Only one person(maybe 2) people can have the belt at the same time.

Even by those standards some of these examples, losing the belt and not regaining it has nothing to do with them. MM lost a split decision and got "traded". A shit ton of the people in your list weren't the best fighter in their division as champ.

 

[locust rising]

"Sure fighters today are better but in his era fedor was the best".

"Even though cro cop/fedor/nog all got beaten by non pride competition and were proven to be lesser fighters, during a miniscule period of time they were considered the best (without facing ufc fighters) fighters in the world. Fedor was the best of the 3 so therefore he is the best. Even though he lost to an old man middleweight".

I'm sick of hearing people say Fedor over jones because of the " era". If you dominate when everyone else is terrible that shouldn't get a pass or be equalized with fighters who dominated in harder divisions.

As far as im concerned, fedor shouldn't even be in the discussion. Jones, GSP, Anderson, all rank well above him. He'll I can argue fedor isnt even top 5 all time HW OR p4p.

In that case couldn’t we rank Royce above them all?

 

[Taric]

Losing a belt doesn't make you washed up though. Only one person(maybe 2) people can have the belt at the same time.

Even by those standards some of these examples, losing the belt and not regaining it has nothing to do with them. MM lost a split decision and got "traded". A shit ton of the people in your list weren't the best fighter in their division as champ.

I see you continue having fun moving those goal posts. You said fighters don't decline in their mid-30s. The fact that nearly every champion in UFC history became champion in their 20s and were never again able to retain it is the definition of decline. Some of those fighters are the most accomplished fighters in the history their divisions. It's the perfect methodology to track.

There's about half a dozen UFC champions that got their championship later in life/their career. DC, Werdum, Randy, Anderson, Bisping, and Stipe. Those guys are anomalies. They are exceptions to the rule.

 

[ferrisjso]

I see you continue having fun moving those goal posts. You said fighters don't decline in their mid-30s. The fact that nearly every champion in UFC history became champion in their 20s and were never again able to retain it is the definition of decline. Some of those fighters are the most accomplished fighters in the history their divisions. It's the perfect methodology to track.

There's about half a dozen UFC champions that got their championship later in life/their career. DC, Werdum, Randy, Anderson, Bisping, and Stipe. Those guys are anomalies. They are exceptions to the rule.

Nealry every fighter has become champion in their 20's? What? I don't think that's true at all. Did you count?

 

[Taric]

Nealry every fighter has become champion in their 20's? What? I don't think that's true at all. Did you count?

Every fighter I listed gained their championship by the age of 31, or younger, and then they all lost it before the age of 34.
Athletic prime. It's a thing.

 

[SuperNerd]

and the worst thing about math is the numbers.

 

[WHITE ANDERSON]

fedor couldn't even beat bader lol

 

[SHAZAM]

Lmao this jealous piece of shit is mad he wasn't around to watch Pride. How many UFC guys from that era are still active? Which HW from Fedors era outlasted him, Reem, Doom and Hunt? Outside of the lower weight classes the competition is terrible. Jones is getting nothing but unroided MWs while he gets to roid to the gills: terrible! Modern MMA is a joke from 170 and up. GSP run is a joke! Aside from Shields, his wins were meh... Alves, Hardy and Kos are all.meh... His MW belt don't count.

If you weren't such a noob you'd know HW was at its peak at the time and that Fedor was the underdog plenty of times in Pride. Nobody was talking dumb shit like you are now you jealous mfer. Pride hated Fedor and wanted CroCop tito win but dumbfucks like you claim they liked him so fed him cans. But even if he did get a can or 2 he ate them unlike fucking Silva and GSP who got subbed and KTFO by their can.

GTFO with your noob shit. None of the guys you mentioned can ever be MMA GOAT if they never fought and won a belt in Pride: the real deal. Cheapass fucking UFC where you're denied a shot at the belt because of politics. Manufactured fucking champs who have no business near the belt like Lesnar, Bisping, LW McGregor, etc while guys on streaks like Souza, Moose and Cucuy get denied. Fucking noob.

 

[grimballer]

You could make the same argument for gsp n Anderson now

N when jones declines the same argument will be made regarding him n the level of competition he faced

So you can only judge a fighter within the time period he fought in

 

[Bamboozled]

No he really isn’t because you have to take whole careers into consideration. He beat some decent guys, a few great ones. He also crushed some cans cans got totally smashed in all his loses and looked below average from Strikeforce on.

Fighters age and look worse

happens to every fighter, even Floyd Mayweather hasn't look the same as he did in like 2009.

 

[jeff7b9]

What a load of revisionist shit.

Really gonna mention the UFC HWs of that era... Tim Sylvia who Fedor beat in 36 seconds and Arlovski who Fedor KOed completely out cold with his eye open in round one.

Get the fuck outta here with that shit.

 

[2004 account]

Fedor is the goat, and those that know this have proven to be some of the most intelligent and knowledgeable fans here on sherdog.

 

[ferrisjso]

No fighter in the history of MMA has ever stayed consistently ranked in a division longer than 11 years. Nogueira is the longest.
FYI, that includes GSP. GSP retired after 9 years of being ranked at WW.

Fans that expect fighters to stay consistently on top for 15-20 years are morons.

15-20 years is too much. But thing is after people started calling Fedor washed up he kept winning for awhile he just lost to the best guys he fought. Except Rampage every single top fighter in Pride regardless of age showed a decline in the UFC. And I'm not buying that they all got washed up the same time. Contrast that to what happened with Strikeforce. Sure you had Melendez wash out but pretty much every single major Strikeforce star did great in the UFC many in their mid to late 30's.

I don't think GSP was washed up so much as his division got full of bad matchups very quickly. GSP struggled against the best strikers at 170 Condit and Hendricks who in comparison to the guys who were coming over from Strikeforce honestly just weren't as good(and their records since despite being pretty young shows this). GSP was quitting he was ahead and without a robbery decision would have had a loss there. AS didn't do this and look what happened to him. Don't think he was washed up think the sport caught up to him. AS it's more complicated cause I think a lot of his wins had more to do with non MMA skill related shit like intimidation and size though matchups certainly helped too. GSP came back to win the 185 belt years later and while he struggled to do so, he still won against the champ(who I believe beats AS any era). GSP would have lost fights but on the other hand don't think he would have went away or anything.

 

[ferrisjso]

What a load of revisionist shit.

Really gonna mention the UFC HWs of that era... Tim Sylvia who Fedor beat in 36 seconds and Arlovski who Fedor KOed completely out cold with his eye open in round one.

Get the fuck outta here with that shit.

This is a strawman. The era was bad as a whole. I also think Arlovoski was unlucky to lose as quickly as he did and could have beaten Fedor(also was unlucky to lose to fucking Tim Sylvia twice). Nothing to prove that I admit just saying it.

This is the best way to show the quality of that era. In 2002 Randy was driven to the verge of retirement by Barnett and Rodriguez, went to 205 where an upset kept him around a few more years . Anyhow both those guys leave the UFC for outside reasons, Frank Mir who was the future gets in a bike accident and in 2007 Tim Sylvia who wasn't as good as any of the dudes I just mentioned is somehow STILL CHAMP. So Randy gets off his couch and gets the belt back and loses it to a green WWE star who's afraid of getting punched and relied on his size to dominate. This is the same UFC division where Big Nog and Cro Cop struggled after coming over from Pride.

Could Fedor have done better and gotten the UFC belt(and kept it unlike Big Nog)? Pretty likely but that ain't the point that whole era was weak af. If Fedor comes out of there with his belt, no way he gets through JDS, Cain and Carwin in 2010/2011 who were just on a different level than any HW's from that time. This is when he lost to the best guys he fought in Strikeforce and when he was supposedly washed and what would the reaction have been then? Think Kongo or some of the lower ranked guys who ran into tough schedules would have been dangerous opponents as well.

 

[Taric]

15-20 years is too much. But thing is after people started calling Fedor washed up he kept winning for awhile he just lost to the best guys he fought. Except Rampage every single top fighter in Pride regardless of age showed a decline in the UFC. And I'm not buying that they all got washed up the same time.

The UFC champions from 2000-2006, when PRIDE was active with divisions were:

HW - Couture, Barnett, Ricco Rodriguez, Sylvia, Mir, and Arlovski
LHW - Tito, Couture, Vitor, Liddell
MW - Menne, Bustamante, Tanner, and Franklin
WW - Newton, Hughes, BJ, and GSP
LW - Pulver and Sherk

The only fighters of this entire list that had success after PRIDE folded were:
Couture, BJ, and GSP

• Nogueira defeated Randy easily.
• I'm pretty sure you just insulted BJ a moment ago.
• GSP didn't gain his first title until around the time PRIDE folded. He was, by far, the youngest fighter of that entire list. It's only natural his success continues after PRIDE folded... He didn't even really gain success until it did fold.

You're terrible at understanding the concept of time friend. You keep trying to compare fighters from an older era with a newer one and act confused why the older fighters reign ended earlier. I mean Fedor was the #1 HW for 5 years before GSP's reign even began. Just to put it in perspective for you Fedor, to last as long as GSP did, would've had to stay as the #1 HW for 15 consecutive years. That's completely unrealistic. No fighter has been #1 longer than 7 years and the fighter to do that was Fedor lol

 

[TR1]

LOL @ someone mentioning Carwin as "on another level".

Carwin accomplished fuck all in his MMA career.

Just shows you how dumb UFC shills are, that they believe the new breed bullshit trotted out for them.

UFC has produced barely any good new HWs. Cain and JDS are some of the few, and what happened to them?
Cain fought the same guys non stop, and injuries ruined him.
JDS beat a couple old guys (looked good, no hate), then was ruined by Cain.
Not bad careers by any stretch, but nothing earth shattering either.

And then we had Stipe, who got his "GOAT HW" status by literally beating a bunch of ancient guys who were in their late 30s.

Pathetic.

MMA once had a HW scene that was full of awesome fighters in the mid 20s. They all ended up fighting each other anyways when fighters went between the UFC and PRIDE.

It's been shit since.

 

[TR1]

I see you continue having fun moving those goal posts. You said fighters don't decline in their mid-30s. The fact that nearly every champion in UFC history became champion in their 20s and were never again able to retain it is the definition of decline. Some of those fighters are the most accomplished fighters in the history their divisions. It's the perfect methodology to track.

There's about half a dozen UFC champions that got their championship later in life/their career. DC, Werdum, Randy, Anderson, Bisping, and Stipe. Those guys are anomalies. They are exceptions to the rule.

He is a clueless noob, don't even waste your breath arguing with him.

 

[mirko>anyone]

Ppl will look back at Jones era in 15-20 years and say that Jones was the first well-rounded fighter when everyone else was still one-dimensional.

Time is a flat circle.

Best and most accurate post I've seen in some time.

 

[ferrisjso]

The UFC champions from 2000-2006, when PRIDE was active with divisions were:

HW - Couture, Barnett, Ricco Rodriguez, Sylvia, Mir, and Arlovski
LHW - Tito, Couture, Vitor, Liddell
MW - Menne, Bustamante, Tanner, and Franklin
WW - Newton, Hughes, BJ, and GSP
LW - Pulver and Sherk

The only fighters of this entire list that had success after PRIDE folded were:
Couture, BJ, and GSP

• Nogueira defeated Randy easily.
• I'm pretty sure you just insulted BJ a moment ago.
• GSP didn't gain his first title until around the time PRIDE folded. He was, by far, the youngest fighter of that entire list. It's only natural his success continues after PRIDE folded... He didn't even really gain success until it did fold.

You're terrible at understanding eras friend. You keep trying to compare fighters from an older era with a newer one and act confused why the older fighters reign ended earlier. I mean Fedor was the #1 HW for 5 years before GSP's reign even began. Just to put it in perspective for you Fedor, to last as long as GSP did, would've had to stay as the #1 HW for 15 consecutive years. That's completely unrealistic. No fighter has been #1 longer than 7 years and the fighter to do that was Fedor lol

Again I'm arguing the ENTIRE era was obsolete. I feel like you honed on to me saying Pride didn't do well in the merger and are focusing on that. The OP's talking about different era's that applies to everyone. UFC fighters of the Pride era were mostly not successful after the folding because the UFC's quality improved drastically. Randy, Couture and BJ are members of Fedor's era? If anything the most logical thing you're saying is that the merger wasn't a failure and the UFC/Pride fighters all got washed around the same time?

Big Nog was more successful than Cro Cop but he beat Herring, got his belt by beating Tim Sylvia then lost to post accident Mir who became a gatekeeper almost a rite of passage for new HW's. After beating Randy(who was closer to 50 than 40 by this point) he beat the almighty Brenden Schuab then lost to Mir AGAIN.

I think BJ's overrated too? Again I feel like you think because I criticize Fedor and his fans I support some UFC fanboy narrative from the 2000's, I don't. Yes I did insult BJ by saying that. BJ was massively overrated, 155 was awful until the most recent generation IMO and there is no part of the sport where the contrast is clearer IMO. Feel BJ was the edgy GOAT back back in the day. Back when 155 first got loaded and guys like Frankie and Benson were champ I straight up didn't believe people when they were talking about how great 155 was.

Feel like you just abandoned the whole era's thing and just went on a UFC v Pride argument. By the way I think Pride's HW's did poorly against the UFC's(and Wandy did even worse remember he had a GOAT bandwagon that had to disband?) best but when I say Pride's system was inferior I'm talking about not having the title shot system. Pride HW's were were Pride fans had the greatest argument they were superior. And those stars did not prove they were superior. Big Nog was one of the best in the UFC, but beating Randy and losing to post accident Mir ain't enough. I'm saying the whole era with the exception of Vitor couldn't compete(who started absurdley young) with the modern fighter.

Again Fedor did win most of his fights until today. He lost to the best guys he fought, many of whom WERE OLDER THAN FEDOR. Anyway I used to think MMA fighters declined the way basketball or baseball players do. Once you hit 30 you have a few years left and you're done. Watching longer has made it clear that is not the case. Barring career crippling injuries that isn't something to really worry about until 35 or 36. But per the number 1 for 7 years thing, again those 7 years were due to the Pride system and fighting in a weaker era which that system let him see weaker fighters even for that era. Fedor's reign would have ended in 2010 anyway and he still wouldn't be the GOAT regardless of what promotion it happened in.

 

[ferrisjso]

LOL @ someone mentioning Carwin as "on another level".

Carwin accomplished fuck all in his MMA career.

Just shows you how dumb UFC shills are, that they believe the new breed bullshit trotted out for them.

UFC has produced barely any good new HWs. Cain and JDS are some of the few, and what happened to them?
Cain fought the same guys non stop, and injuries ruined him.
JDS beat a couple old guys (looked good, no hate), then was ruined by Cain.
Not bad careers by any stretch, but nothing earth shattering either.

And then we had Stipe, who got his "GOAT HW" status by literally beating a bunch of ancient guys who were in their late 30s.

Pathetic.

MMA once had a HW scene that was full of awesome fighters in the mid 20s. They all ended up fighting each other anyways when fighters went between the UFC and PRIDE.

It's been shit since.

I mean I agree with most of what you said. Your mistake is in believing your Pride's fighters are somehow exempt from all the accurate shit you posted about UFC fighters. There was no special era for HW's, the shit you're saying was always true. HW regardless of the era, regardless of the promotion is terrible. It's why Cain got so overrated just because he had decent cardio, cause in HW that might as well be gold. That's why it never became the sports major leagues the way it did in boxing. Carwin was a guy who was able to stand with the best of the new generation and only lost to Lesnar cause the ref didn't stop it and again HW's aren't going to go more than a round at a high level. He wasn't great either for reasons stated above but he was among the best of the time.

Again feel like y'all ignored the OP prompt in order to whiteknight Pride as being special and exempt from otherwise accurate logic.