Is Royce Gracie overrated or underrated?

[BoosieBoo]

So, he IS a legend and likely the single most important fighter in MMA history even if he wasn't the best ever.

This.

 

[basementdweller]

I'm well aware of this but...it was Royce who won the first 3 UFC's, not anyone else in the family. You can't say "oh well ___ Gracie would have won as well so we shouldn't give Royce props"

Not how it works.

well I agree with everything you said now. he just wasn't the reason we have MMA.

 

[kumitechamp]

UFC 1 everybody was kinda like CM Punk maybe even worse since CM Punk has trained mma for two years. None of the fighters in UFC 1 had. Except for Royce they tailor made a sport for him to be able to shine in. Spare me the bs about its fighting blah blah blah. No one trained to be a professional MMA fighter because it didnt exist. Jui Jitsu is not gonna save you in some back alley brawl with a random much more than anything else. Roll around on the ground with some jackass while his buddies curb stomp your face in the concrete.

 

[Frank Kain]

True, but he sucked by 1995's standards because of evolution too.



What he did was impressive, but he won his fights not only because of his skill at jiu jitsu, but because of his opponent's almost complete lack of knowledge of submission grappling. Art Jimmerson tapped because he was taken down, not because Royce choked him or threatened a limb. His success forced fighters to learn jiu jitsu, and that's why he's a legend. But within a very short time after his debut at UFC 1, his opponents were able to defend against his attacks and batter the poor guy.

By 1995, Shamrock was the only fighter that demonstrated the ability to beat him, even then it would have been a decision loss against a man Royce was spotting 40+ pounds. It was an era of 1 dimensional fighters primarily, but Royce's dimension gave him a chance against anyone. It was the start of it all.

 

[Coconutwater]

I think he's underrated as a fighter.

His jiu-jitsu was specifically designed to compete against other single-discipline arts, and with it, he beat them all. People say that Royce wasn't even the best representative of jiu-jitsu around that time. They'd cite the Carlson Gracie team, other members of Humaita, but IMO, Royce had excellent hand-eye coordination and reflexes compared to anybody you could have thought of at that time. It's not his fault he was undersized or underpowered against the next wave, The Coleman's, Kerr's or that he lost to fighters who later learned his strategy and basic moves combined with their own arts to be formidable.

In his prime, he really moved well, not stiff at all and excellent at improvising. He didn't take risks like Rickson who often found himself in guillotine's he had to fight out of. He didn't do desperate leaping tackles like Sperry vs Igor Z, he was conservative and it served him very well, only up until the guys got bigger or wiser.

As an athlete, when he was between 24-29, he was awesome, with good endurance, flexibility and instincts. His body already had a lot of miles prior to the UFC since it was him who often fought in the Gracie In Action fights.

I don't care much for his personality or philosophies though.

 

[kumitechamp]

I suppose I should follow up what I said with I think he is rated fairly. He is a legend a pioneer and was the best in the world for a period of time.

 

[Frank Kain]

UFC 1 everybody was kinda like CM Punk maybe even worse since CM Punk has trained mma for two years. None of the fighters in UFC 1 had. Except for Royce they tailor made a sport for him to be able to shine in. Spare me the bs about its fighting blah blah blah. No one trained to be a professional MMA fighter because it didnt exist. Jui Jitsu is not gonna save you in some back alley brawl with a random much more than anything else. Roll around on the ground with some jackass while his buddies curb stomp your face in the concrete.

The essence of the competition in the UFC is very similar though. Biggest difference is the lack of rounds, but outside of that today's rules are more restrictive. Back alley brawls are exactly that, even today's best fighters could lose from being sucker punched or getting ganged up on.

 

[Neil'sMagny]

I think he's a tad overrated, but understand why so many think of him as a legend. His family set up those earliest tournaments and loaded the other side of his bracket with killers while his side consisted mostly of guys who had no business being in the cage. Plus, he was a bit on the dirty side, he's been known to hold submissions long after the ref stepped in to stop the fight. I acknowledge his contribution as a pioneer, but I've just never had a lot of respect for him as a fighter, despite he and his family's role in shaping MMA. I know that's on me.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

Yeah and that's why he was so great. He knew a skill that his father and family practiced ...that others didn't have. . The logic you are saying is, you can beat Cain as long as he knows less skill than you do

1. Sure, you can see from my posting that I think he deserves to be called a legend.
2. But it didn't take years of training to learn to be able to defend what Royce did. Did Royce ever beat a fighter with a belt, any belt, in jiu jitsu?

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

This is just factually wrong. The lack of knowledge about MMA history ITT is cringey. Ya'll posting on a MMA website and don't even know about Royce

I've watched all of Royce's fights. I was somewhat of a fan at one point. Factually, Royce had no good wins after 1995. What knowledge am I lacking?

It doesn't mean he sucked. But the game certainly caught up to him quickly.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

By 1995, Shamrock was the only fighter that demonstrated the ability to beat him, even then it would have been a decision loss against a man Royce was spotting 40+ pounds. It was an era of 1 dimensional fighters primarily, but Royce's dimension gave him a chance against anyone. It was the start of it all.

I completely agree, and have been agreeing that Royce was a great pioneer. That said, after his three UFC tournament runs, Royce struggled to find success against his contemporaries. I point this out as a counter to those saying he only seems overrated in comparison to today's fighters. But outside of his great one year run from late 93 to late 94, he wasn't a largely successful fighter.

 

[Kingz]

product of his time but his time is what matters. In his time he was every bit as good and most of all important as he gets credit for today.

 

[Pseudo Sane]

It's not like there is one opinion on Royce's legacy here. Some people overrate him, some underrate. It is a mixed bag. Overall he is pretty well-respected, especially since Matt Hughes pummeled him so badly people stopped assuming he was relevant even hypothetically as an active fighter.

I am surprised no one has brought up his failed PED test, actually. Doesn't seem to have tainted people's view of him all that much, which is odd.

 

[Frank Kain]

I completely agree, and have been agreeing that Royce was a great pioneer. That said, after his three UFC tournament runs, Royce struggled to find success against his contemporaries. I point this out as a counter to those saying he only seems overrated in comparison to today's fighters. But outside of his great one year run from late 93 to late 94, he wasn't a largely successful fighter.

He didn't really have anywhere to go without weight classes (UFC teens, I think). He did need to drop the pajamas at some point, though. I can't be too critical, I proudly bought jamies and started JJ classes soon after I saw UFC 5.

 

[flyingscissorsheelhook]

Where do you think Anderson got his front kick to the face from??

The great master Steven Seagal of course!

 

[Haj01]

Or how about adequately-rated

 

[ReasonableMMAFan]

Stating that it would have "eventually happen" is moot because it did happen and the person who made it happen for us was Royce. Shooto does predate UFC but not by a big margin at all, and they did not have the impact that UFC 1 had (obviously).

tldr; Royce is one of the GOAT's and most UFC current or former champs around the age of 35~ will all have Royce as their major inspiration.

I'm just pointing out what Royce did was going to replicated eventually, and mma had pretty much existed already. In fact, mma has always existed in some for or another since the dawn of mankind.

 

[Mr T_712]

I originally started watching MMA through doing Jujitsu and I was always really short too so for me underappreciated, not underated.

 

[Killme]

True, but he sucked by 1995's standards because of evolution too.

LOL this, can you imagine him in there with 19 yr old Belfort? Don Frye? Mark Coleman? He would get destroyed.

Hell, Taktarov and Ruas would beat him too...

 

[storeybuckle]

Some people think he sucks and others think he's a legend. I don't really care but I'd be interested to see what Sherdog thinks. All I know is that he didn't 'create' mma, like some people claim.

Royce=right place right time
Royce = big fish small pond