Is knee wrestling a really useless skill?

Knee wrestling just reflects the inability of mainstream BJJ to impose someones game, knee wrestling reflects the same as standup wrestling among BJJ hobby practitioners stalling, overly defensive posture and a lack of aggression or action based on a lack of confidence in one skills.

Bullshit. I'm a BJJ guy and if it were up to me, I would start from the feet every single time and guard pulling wouldn't be an option. It's the same thing for a lot of the guys I train with in both BJJ and MMA. When it comes time to roll though, most of us pull guard instantly when we start from the knees unless our training partner does it first because, wait for it... two people on their knees fighting for top position is a waste of fucking time for everyone involved.

As i already posted, Anthony Robles 3 times all american and 1 time national champ couldnt wrestle standing up, he achieved all of that knee wrestling against the best of the best.

You can't possibly think you're making a valid point here.
 
Knee wrestling is a part of grappling. A very, very small part. A tiny part.

So stop starting your rounds from there.

Here's a novel idea, start your rounds in positions you end up in OFTEN. Like top and bottom open guard. Both standing. Etc.

Both guys on their knees, even one guy... is a very low likelyhood situation in live rolling. Who the hell stays on their knees in competition? No one. You either sit down or you standup.
 
Bullshit. I'm a BJJ guy and if it were up to me, I would start from the feet every single time and guard pulling wouldn't be an option. It's the same thing for a lot of the guys I train with in both BJJ and MMA. When it comes time to roll though, most of us pull guard instantly when we start from the knees unless our training partner does it first because, wait for it... two people on their knees fighting for top position is a waste of fucking time for everyone involve

Pretty easy to talk the talk, the same i hear all the time from BJJ guys, but when put through a legit standup training and they all immediatly quit.

Its a fucking time of waste because you lack the skills necesary to make anything worthwhile of it, but guess what the same applies to everything 2 guys with zero striking, judo, wrestling, etc etc sparring without any sort of guidance is also a fucking time of waste.

You can't possibly think you're making a valid point here.

You talk as if the only thing you can do when you are on your knees is try to guard. I just showed a 3 times all american and 1 time national champ who couldnt fight on his feet and couldnt pull guard and still managed to get that impressive record.
 
Knee wrestling is a part of grappling. A very, very small part. A tiny part.

So stop starting your rounds from there.

Here's a novel idea, start your rounds in positions you end up in OFTEN. Like top and bottom open guard. Both standing. Etc.

Both guys on their knees, even one guy... is a very low likelyhood situation in live rolling. Who the hell stays on their knees in competition? No one. You either sit down or you standup.

Pretty much all scrambles are decided before any party can standup or not, and while its just a fraction of time it has long term consequences, losing a scramble may be the same as losing a match.

I dont like knee wrestling, but im not willing to pull guard in any case but under my terms during a serious roll.
 
Pretty easy to talk the talk, the same i hear all the time from BJJ guys, but when put through a legit standup training and they all immediatly quit.

I've spent a ton of time training with the wrestling team at a local college and plenty of time at the nearby judo school, wrong again. On top of that, I spend most of my time now getting ready for MMA with fighters who have wrestling bases. It's absolutely hilarious how almost all wrestlers and judokas automatically assume they're tougher than BJJ guys, it's cute really.

Its a fucking time of waste because you lack the skills necesary to make anything worthwhile of it, but guess what the same applies to everything 2 guys with zero striking, judo, wrestling, etc etc sparring without any sort of guidance is also a fucking time of waste.

Another incorrect assumption, well done. Most people I train with ask me where I wrestled, they're usually surprised when I tell them my base is BJJ. I can make things happen from the knees, it's still a fucking waste of time and I'd prefer to pull guard where I can work from a position that's actually useful.

You talk as if the only thing you can do when you are on your knees is try to guard. I just showed a 3 times all american and 1 time national champ who couldnt fight on his feet and couldnt pull guard and still managed to get that impressive record.

Well, first off I never talked like that's the only thing you can do from your knees nor did I imply it in any way. I said that wrestling from the knees is a waste of time for everyone involved because it is. What does Anthony Robles have to do with anything? Someone wrestling from his knees against opponents who are free to react in any way they please has no relevance in this argument.
 
Pretty much all scrambles are decided before any party can standup or not, and while its just a fraction of time it has long term consequences, losing a scramble may be the same as losing a match.

I dont like knee wrestling, but im not willing to pull guard in any case but under my terms during a serious roll.

You're only helping my case.

Scrambles always involve atleast one person standing up, or pulling guard. You cannot defend yourself, or attack the guard from the knees.

You do not see scrambles where both parties hang out on the knees. There are zero intelligent attacks or defenses from there if or opponent has moved to standing over you or playing guard. During scrambles, you are both looking to improve position.

Im a big believer that the transition from ground to sitting is important to train. But train the whole transition... Not the shitty middle part that only last for .5 seconds.

If you want to start on the knees and have you both jump on each other in a scramble type simulation, that's one thing... But that's not what happens. Both guys stay down and retardation follows.
 
As far as no-gi:

Double knees is a TERRIBLE simulation of balance and grip fighting on the feet.

Starting in almost any other position is better if you really want to have someone start down.

Opening post was talking about bjj and judo so I assume its with a jacket on. I do no gi like maybe 4-5 times a year, so I'll take your word for it.
 
Not my fault you cant teach to fight for top position at your gym, better pull guard in all situations because all the gyms should only be worried about sport BJJ, not general fitness, general grappling, MMA, Judo, Wrestling whatever.

Just remember the moment someone puts a hand on you just sit down.

What the fuck are you talking about? You're not allowed to knee wrestle at my gym, why are you even talking about a place you've never been?
 
Can't resist posting this gif from yesterday either:

i0WFWPsz5edyK.gif
 
knee wrestling: when 2 fighters are crouching and trying throw each other instead of standing or pulling guard.

It is commonly accepted that it is "more realistic" to start from guard/turtle than wrestle from the knees. But I'm actually wondering if it's true.

In a BJJ setting it would be unlikely because jujiteiros are perfectly fine with bottom game, but in judo this situation happens often since a big throw from the knee would still count as a win.

So I was wondering if knee-wrestling would be usefull in MMA. Is it usefull to know how to ippon seoi someone who is squatting?

Opening post was talking about bjj and judo so I assume its with a jacket on. I do no gi like maybe 4-5 times a year, so I'll take your word for it.


I don't know...looks like he's asking about no-gi MMA to me.
 
Opening post was talking about bjj and judo so I assume its with a jacket on. I do no gi like maybe 4-5 times a year, so I'll take your word for it.

It is really interesting though that there are so many guys basically doing zero no-gi these days. I recently heard someone training at Gracie Barra HQ echo that sentiment about his gym. He was saying they were about to have black belts that had only trained like one time ever in no-gi.

That's a big shift in the direction of training from what I was seeing in the early 2000s.

It's makes sense that you guys would look at things like wrestling from a very different perspective than us no-gi guys.
 
you never know when you're gonna get mugged by a renegade oompa loompa.
 
I recently heard someone training at Gracie Barra HQ echo that sentiment about his gym. He was saying they were about to have black belts that had only trained like one time ever in no-gi.

Disgraceful. :icon_neut
 
I used to think it was useless, but as my stand up game got better, I've found that I can apply a lot of the same principles while on the knees while keeping the rest of my training partners safe. Underhooks, head pressure, whizzers, russians, knee taps, etc are all still doable from the knees. So you can't shoot a double. That's why we have a separate wrestling curriculum. Is it the ideal situation? No. But it's far from useless.
 
I've spent a ton of time training with the wrestling team at a local college and plenty of time at the nearby judo school, wrong again. On top of that, I spend most of my time now getting ready for MMA with fighters who have wrestling bases. It's absolutely hilarious how almost all wrestlers and judokas automatically assume they're tougher than BJJ guys, it's cute really.



Another incorrect assumption, well done. Most people I train with ask me where I wrestled, they're usually surprised when I tell them my base is BJJ. I can make things happen from the knees, it's still a fucking waste of time and I'd prefer to pull guard where I can work from a position that's actually useful.



Well, first off I never talked like that's the only thing you can do from your knees nor did I imply it in any way. I said that wrestling from the knees is a waste of time for everyone involved because it is. What does Anthony Robles have to do with anything? Someone wrestling from his knees against opponents who are free to react in any way they please has no relevance in this argument.

Just a quick point, if you learnt your stand up from wrestling and judo then bjj did not teach you stand up or make you tough on your feet. Cross training is the best option and your 100% right to do it. Just give wrestlers and judo guys a little credit,

We use knee wrestling in my school to promote dominant grips, scrambles and aggressive groundwork. Training to give up position is weak imo. Learn to deal with those inferior position when you are put there by a skilled aggressive opponent. It helps us maintain a high tempo in the grappling exchanges and make them adversarial.
 
Just a quick point, if you learnt your stand up from wrestling and judo then bjj did not teach you stand up or make you tough on your feet. Cross training is the best option and your 100% right to do it. Just give wrestlers and judo guys a little credit,

I didn't learn it from wrestling and judo. Training them definitely added things to my game but most of what I know comes from the takedowns I learned over the years in BJJ before I ever started trying other things. My point was that Rod1 is full of shit when he claims that a BJJ guy can't hang in a wrestling or judo training session and will immediately quit, that's just complete nonsense. Wrestlers and judokas are so bizarrely self-congratulatory thinking they have some miracle toughness that no one with a BJJ background can ever achieve, it's hilarious.

We use knee wrestling in my school to promote dominant grips, scrambles and aggressive groundwork. Training to give up position is weak imo. Learn to deal with those inferior position when you are put there by a skilled aggressive opponent. It helps us maintain a high tempo in the grappling exchanges and make them adversarial.

You're learning to deal with a position that you will literally never come across in an actual live grappling or fighting situation. Pulling guard isn't giving up position when it comes to knee wrestling (and trust me, I hate pulling guard), it's acknowledging that you want to work something that actually benefits you and your training partner. I don't agree with knee wrestling helping to maintain a high tempo either, if anything it's the opposite. It's just two guys who would rather do something that is a complete waste of time for both of them than ever be on their backs.

You want to work on getting dominant grips, scrambling and being aggressive on the ground? Do it from a position you're actually going to end up in at some point. You can knee wrestle all you want but someone is still going to be able to take you down and when they do, you're going to wish you had spent that time working on your guard and your ability to make things happen from there than fighting for useless knee takedowns.
 
I don't know...looks like he's asking about no-gi MMA to me.

Holy shit. You're right. Your following post summed it up. I totally projected. I didn't even notice his last paragraph.

Anyways, my opinion is just for bjj. I don't think its completely useless. Not ideal, but not useless for sparring.
 
I didn't learn it from wrestling and judo. Training them definitely added things to my game but most of what I know comes from the takedowns I learned over the years in BJJ before I ever started trying other things. My point was that Rod1 is full of shit when he claims that a BJJ guy can't hang in a wrestling or judo training session and will immediately quit, that's just complete nonsense. Wrestlers and judokas are so bizarrely self-congratulatory thinking they have some miracle toughness that no one with a BJJ background can ever achieve, it's hilarious.



You're learning to deal with a position that you will literally never come across in an actual live grappling or fighting situation. Pulling guard isn't giving up position when it comes to knee wrestling (and trust me, I hate pulling guard), it's acknowledging that you want to work something that actually benefits you and your training partner. I don't agree with knee wrestling helping to maintain a high tempo either, if anything it's the opposite. It's just two guys who would rather do something that is a complete waste of time for both of them than ever be on their backs.

You want to work on getting dominant grips, scrambling and being aggressive on the ground? Do it from a position you're actually going to end up in at some point. You can knee wrestle all you want but someone is still going to be able to take you down and when they do, you're going to wish you had spent that time working on your guard and your ability to make things happen from there than fighting for useless knee takedowns.

I'll be honest I think toughness is a product of mat time and training standard. I'll lay my cards on the table I'm a judoka, 33 years old and I've been doing judo a long time. I can only comment on the bjj clubs I've trained in and the standard of stand up grappling was not high. I do not believe the bjj players
hat I've trained with were a threat to me standing.

My theory of grappling is coloured by my training and I believe absolutely in the hierarchy of position. Knee wrestling is used to force people to train in a way that they do not choose the position they end up in. They must deal with the hand they are given whilst under pressure and at speed. Grappling should not be ponderous or full or stalls. It should be fast and movement oriented. Pulling guard is an option I agree, and a good option, but train it always against someone who does not want to let you do it, or simply a resisting opponent. This is what sets wrestling/judo/bjj apart from aikido etc. Knee wrestling is a safe and easy way to instil the mindset of aggression and making an opponent do what you want, simply agreeing to sit down for your partner does neither of you a favour in my opinion.
 
I didn't learn it from wrestling and judo. Training them definitely added things to my game but most of what I know comes from the takedowns I learned over the years in BJJ before I ever started trying other things. My point was that Rod1 is full of shit when he claims that a BJJ guy can't hang in a wrestling or judo training session and will immediately quit, that's just complete nonsense. Wrestlers and judokas are so bizarrely self-congratulatory thinking they have some miracle toughness that no one with a BJJ background can ever achieve, it's hilarious.

Really? full of BS? im not saying they cant hang, anyone can hang in any place with sufficient motivation, its not something that requires a special toughness, but it does requires consistency, like being able to lose weight or go lifting.

Its not self-congratulatory, its a reality, just watch any academy that also offers judo and see the levels of attendance.

You're learning to deal with a position that you will literally never come across in an actual live grappling or fighting situation. Pulling guard isn't giving up position when it comes to knee wrestling (and trust me, I hate pulling guard), it's acknowledging that you want to work something that actually benefits you and your training

So scrambling never happens? also whats that shit about wasting time, it just takes top 30 seconds of knee wrestling before someone gets a better position or someone pulls guard.

partner. I don't agree with knee wrestling helping to maintain a high tempo either, if anything it's the opposite. It's just two guys who would rather do something that is a complete waste of time for both of them than ever be on their backs.

I agree tempo depends on the intensity of the roll itself.

You want to work on getting dominant grips, scrambling and being aggressive on the ground? Do it from a position you're actually going to end up in at some point. You can knee wrestle all you want but someone is still going to be able to take you down and when they do, you're going to wish you had spent that time working on your guard and your ability to make things happen from there than fighting for useless knee takedowns.

Someone will sometimes pass your guard, so why train guard, just learn escapes from side control.
 
I'll be honest I think toughness is a product of mat time and training standard. I'll lay my cards on the table I'm a judoka, 33 years old and I've been doing judo a long time. I can only comment on the bjj clubs I've trained in and the standard of stand up grappling was not high. I do not believe the bjj players
hat I've trained with were a threat to me standing.

My theory of grappling is coloured by my training and I believe absolutely in the hierarchy of position. Knee wrestling is used to force people to train in a way that they do not choose the position they end up in. They must deal with the hand they are given whilst under pressure and at speed. Grappling should not be ponderous or full or stalls. It should be fast and movement oriented. Pulling guard is an option I agree, and a good option, but train it always against someone who does not want to let you do it, or simply a resisting opponent. This is what sets wrestling/judo/bjj apart from aikido etc. Knee wrestling is a safe and easy way to instil the mindset of aggression and making an opponent do what you want, simply agreeing to sit down for your partner does neither of you a favour in my opinion.

Hmm, I disagree with your take on it but this is a solid response. I will also say that my instructor started as a wrestler and has some judo under his belt himself so my experience likely hasn't been the same as many others with a BJJ base. He runs his classes with that wrestler's mentality I guess and during my early years of training, I was drilling double and single legs just as often as I was triangles and armbars. Hopefully as time goes on, we see more grapplers who've done nothing but BJJ running their schools the same way (although it unfortunately seems to be going in the opposite direction at the moment).

Personally if I was running a BJJ school, no one would ever be starting from the knees. If that's what you have to do then I think both people should take turns pulling guard. I think I might be giving the wrong impression too when I say I automatically pull guard if my training partner doesn't do it, it's not like I just flop to my back and let him start dictating the pace. I get my grips and immediately start attacking, I'm always trying to sweep right away. It's not unusual for me to "pull guard" from the knees and then be standing up with a single leg just a few seconds later. I just feel like that's the best way to go and that you're only hurting yourself by never pulling guard but hey, no big deal.
 
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