Is Ken Shamrock really the 'Greatest American Catch Wrestler' in history?

[Bamboozled]

Frank Gotch? Farmer Burns?

 

[beastman]

Tapping lister legit as fuck and with cacc move is epic

Barnett doing it with full pressure/weight/squeeze must have been brutal

 

[tenniswhiz]

I’d love to have seen Ken Shamrock in his prime, go up against Matt Furey in a submission wrestling match.
Abu Dhabi style rules, not pure catch.

Sakuraba was another great catch wrestler.
But he was smaller and not as physically strong as Ken Shamrock or Matt Furey.

 

[Idonotbelieveit]

Barnett doing it with full pressure/weight/squeeze must have been brutal

Yeah so painful ala catch

 

[moreorless87]

Accomplishement wise He was Severn is one of the most accomplished wrestlers ever to compete many don't know his freestyle background he's known as a Greco guy
And he was I think 38 in their first fight
Ken Severn was like gsp hughes guy with no background owning
Coleman ken in 97 would have been epic

True Seven was probably 10 years past his best physically by the time he started MMA.

 

[gevoudane]

Josh
DJ
Sakuraba
Frank
Poulson
Funaki
Ken

They have all had their time to shine in MMA, but I cannot see Ken being higher up than Josh now.

 

[Idonotbelieveit]

I’d love to have seen Ken Shamrock in his prime, go up against Matt Furey in a submission wrestling match.
Abu Dhabi style rules, not pure catch.

Sakuraba was another great catch wrestler.
But he was smaller and not as physically strong as Ken Shamrock or Matt Furey.

I’d love to have seen Ken Shamrock in his prime, go up against Matt Furey in a submission wrestling match.
Abu Dhabi style rules, not pure catch.

Sakuraba was another great catch wrestler.
But he was smaller and not as physically strong as Ken Shamrock or Matt Furey.

what saku lacked in strength was his wrestling
Would have loved to see him vs ken he's more skilled than ken imo
Billy Robinson pupil
Be interesting match and not in 2005

 

[Mob69]

He would beat anyone into a living death.

 

[Mob69]

Gotch?

 

[mirko>anyone]

Maybe for his time in the early 90s. He is incredibly overrated as a fighter though.

 

[JSN]

I think Josh is better at straight catch

Would Saku be considered a catch wrestler? Then I pick Saku

Finally someone remembers Sakuraba. Easy GOAT in the modern era.

 

[Bullitt68]

First off, this was a great response.

I haven't seen all of Kens Pancrase fights, he seems so much more dynamic in his skillset compared to his fights even in the early UFC tournaments.

Personally, I've always thought that the reason for the disparity in his style of fighting in Pancrase versus the UFC is that he knew in Pancrase that, if the shit hit the fan, he always had the rope escapes. He was a lot more dynamic as you said and took a lot more chances in Pancrase because the consequences stemming from a miscalculation weren't as extreme, from losing if you get caught in a submission (like his first fight with Royce) to getting cut or knocked out with GNP.

That being said I do wonder whether he was so dominant because he wasn't exactly facing stellar competition for the most part in Pancrase.

The competition in Pancrase was a lot stiffer than the UFC competition back then, especially from 1993-1995. By 1996, the UFC was just starting to get legit talent with the influx of people like Frye, Coleman, Kerr, and then shortly after Randy, Vitor, etc. But in the beginning, Pancrase was years ahead of the UFC pool both in terms of their individual skill-sets and in their abilities to mix striking, wrestling, and submissions.

When I referred to Coleman and the others in my earlier post I was thinking specifically how they managed to positionally dominate and land big shots and knees in comparison to Kens performance in the rematch with Gracie where he simply stalled in guard as if clueless on how to pass.

Two things:

1) I'm hard-pressed to come up with any fighter from the early days who was a more "positionally dominant" fighter than Ken. Obviously, GNP wasn't a thing in Pancrase, and in the UFC, Ken really only utilized GNP against Christophe Leininger at UFC 3 and Brian Johnston at UU96. So people like Coleman, Kerr, and to a lesser extent Randleman deserve to be ranked higher than Ken on the GNP front. But purely on the grappling front, people like Coleman, Kerr, and Randleman were outstanding TD artists, and Kerr in particular was not only massive but had an ADCC background and legit submission skills, but Ken's speed, balance, and control - not to mention his strength, which, according to Maurice Smith, who was on the mat with both Coleman and Randleman as well as Ken, was on another level - was so impressive. Not a single person who's been on the mat with Ken has ever not been at a loss for words when trying to convey how strong he was. As I mentioned, Coleman himself described his experience rolling with Ken while he was at the Lion's Den as "humbling."

2) Regarding Ken/Royce 2, I was actually talking about it quite a bit in another thread recently. I'll just leave my remarks here for you if you're interested.

In his prime, after getting tapped by Gracie and being granted a rematch... instead of going out to kill or be killed (to get revenge), he chose to lay and pray Royce (the much smaller guy) because he was scared of getting choked again.

Adding on to what @Hellhammer84 posted, if Ken was really "scared of getting choked again," then why did he immediately take Royce down, go right into his guard, and stay there - ostensibly exactly where Royce wanted him - for the entire fight? Why wouldn't he have just stayed on the feet to sprawl and brawl his way to an easy W?

In reality, Ken wanted to go directly into Royce's guard and dare him to try to submit him. Everyone always bitches about how Ken did nothing in that fight, but how many times have people asked how many armbars, triangles, or kimuras Royce attempted? Never mind the fact that Royce is the one who, along with his family, folded up his tent and ran away from MMA for five years after that fight.

Who was scared again?

Still, at UFC 5, he didnt really go for the win, he definitely wanted the draw, thus he L&Ped, didnt mount any serious offense (Im aware of the numbers though).

Did you not read @Hellhammer84's post? Ken wasn't training for a 30-minute fight. He was training for a three-hour fight like the legendary fights that Hélio competed in back in the day. He was planning on outlasting Royce with his superior strength and conditioning. Even after only a little over 30-minutes, Royce had to be carried out of the cage by his family while Ken was walking around with his arms in the air and getting cheered by the crowd.

Honestly, your "but how many times have people asked how many armbars, triangles, or kimuras Royce attempted"... is...puzzling...

Have you ever watched Kazushi Sakuraba fight? How many times did he sit around waiting for his opponent before he attacked with an armbar or a kimura or a kneebar or a toe hold or a Karate chop or a cartwheel? Royce went right at Ken at UFC 1 because he knew that he had the element of surprise on his side. At UFC 5, he locked Ken's head up with his gi and just held on for dear life.

But yeah, he's blameless. It's all Ken's fault.

Ken: interview after the 2nd Severn fight:

"You watch the fight, anybody will tell you strategy had nothing to do with that. If you call running on the outside of the ring with a smaller opponent and you're basically world class wrestler, where you should be able to take the guy down when you want to take him down and you are running from him... I'm not sure where that plays in to being strategic."

View attachment 430593

First, Ken wasn't training in anticipation of there being a time limit instituted and opted not to alter his game plan at the last minute while Severn trained specifically with the time limit in mind so that he could minimize if not eliminate entirely the amount of time that he'd be at risk of getting submitted by Ken. Second, Severn spent the entire fight avoiding Ken while Ken went after Royce immediately and was literally right in his guard for the entire fight.

Ken trained to fight Royce. Severn trained to avoid fighting Ken.

Do you understand that a Time Limit @ openweight is something unrealistic, and even ridiculous when the size difference is too big?
Otherwise you have a Ken vs Hoyce 2 or Kerr vs Gurgel situation: the much bigger dude L&P/secures the Ground Control, throws some headbutts here and there, takes no risks and waits for the end of the scheduled time limit.

1) It sounds like you're arguing against time limits...in which case, you're on my - and Ken's - side here. As I've said multiple times, Ken wasn't training for and didn't want a time limit.

2) The size difference wasn't "too big" nor was Ken "much bigger." Ken intentionally leaned out for that fight and shed as much weight as he could specifically to invalidate this ridiculous excuse. At UFC 5, Royce was 180 pounds and Ken was 205. That's 25 pounds compared to Royce beating Severn, who outweighed him by 80 pounds, and Kimo, who outweighed him by nearly 100 pounds.

You want Hoyce to go for a kimura, triangle, and what else...while Ken takes absoluteky no risks with his hands/arms?with his head on Hoyce´s chest?doesnt even try to posture up?pass guard?
You seriouz?

I want you to acknowledge that it takes two people to make a boring fight. Royce grabbed onto Ken's head with his gi and held on for dear life. All he tried to do was stall, to control Ken's head so that he couldn't move to pass or posture up. Ken sat right in Royce's guard and dared him to try to submit him. Royce was too scared to risk it.

Hoyce´s game was off his back and necessarily a reactive & progressive game based on capitalizing on his [bigger] opponent´s gambles/mistakes.

So your argument is that Ken shouldn't have come up with and stuck to a game plan designed to thwart Royce's style, force him out of his comfort zone, and make him look bad and instead should've played right into Royce's style so that some knucklehead on an Internet forum two decades later wouldn't whine about it?

The bigger guy wanting a time limit?

This is the last time that I'm going to say it, so please read it slowly: Ken did not want a time limit. That's what pissed him off. Ken trained for a no time limit fight. He planned on outlasting Royce and beating the shit out of him once he gassed. Instead, the UFC - not Ken, and not at Ken's request - instituted time limits for the event, including the Superfight. So, rather than change his game plan, Ken adapted it to where he outlasted Royce for the regulation period, blew up his face with a punch in the OT period, and then watched Royce's family carry him out of the cage.

In no universe does Ken come out of that fight looking worse than Royce. Neither look great, but Ken looks MUCH better by comparison in every way, shape, and form.

Understand than in a NHB/Vale Tudo Fight Configuration @ openweight, the O-N-L-Y chance for the smaller guy is the No Time Limit.

Understand that, in the case of Royce/Ken, a no time limit fight would've benefited Ken, not Royce. After only half an hour, Royce was basically a corpse. If that fight would've lasted another half an hour, or another hour and a half, Royce would've literally been a corpse.

In no universe would that fight lasting longer have benefited Royce.

You cant use the Kimo or Beast cases to claim that the gap was not that important.

You're aware that being unable to logically refute a point doesn't invalidate that point, right?

Im afraid you indeed havent understood Ken´s quote yet

Dude, between the two of us, I'm not the one struggling with reading comprehension.

Even Ken himself acknowledged that your ' it takes two people to make a boring fight' is pure BS in an Openweight case.

Ken being a hypocritical sore loser after getting shafted by some hometown judging and losing his Superfight title by split decision doesn't invalidate my argument. It took two people - Ken and Royce at UFC 5 and Ken and Severn at UFC 9 - to make those two boring fights. You don't get to sit there and put all the blame on Ken for UFC 5 anymore than I get to sit here and put all the blame on Severn for UFC 9.

UFC 5 was both Ken and Royce's faults and UFC 9 was both Ken and Severn's faults. If you want to argue that UFC 5 was more Ken's fault than Royce's, then go ahead and argue that. Personally, I'd disagree, but I'd respect the argument and would be open to having that discussion.

My problem is that that's not what you're arguing. You're arguing that UFC 5 was in no way, shape, or form Royce's fault.

In regards to people who would I think had Kens number, whilst not an American I was thinking of Billy Robinson who's technique videos on YouTube always seemed particularly devasting - the man was a natural animal in his youth and no doubt would have been snatching heels in Pancrase were it around in his day.

"Who are you talking about here? Who do you think would make Ken look like an amateur on the mat?" . In catch as catch can wrestling , not MMA , Frank Gotch . View attachment 431435 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Gotch

The farther back in history we go, though, the murkier things start to get as far as "verification" goes. It's like the "How would Bruce Lee have done in the UFC?" stuff. Whether good, bad, great, terrible, or anything else in between, without competition footage, it's hard to gauge what it would've been like had one of those old school guys gone head-to-head with a Ken Shamrock or a Minoru Suzuki or a Josh Barnett, etc. Personally, I've not seen footage of any fights with any of those old school catch guys. Though, obviously, if you guys - or anyone else reading this thread - have some cool shit to post for me to watch, please do so

Thanks for the motivation to dig out some old Pancrase fights anyway buddy, I'm gonna binge some prime Shamrock and study

Although I have nothing to contribute to this thread, I'll still do so by saluting it as an excellent one.

I miss these types of threads with people eager to learn about/discuss the old school shit.

Ken managed to win first King of Pancrase not long after being subbed by Royce in less than 60 seconds.

Let's not pretend that Royce didn't surprise 99% of the martial arts community that night. He sure as hell didn't tap Ken in 60 seconds once he'd lost the element of surprise.

In fact it had been a constant source of paranoia for the pancrase guys since then that Ken would embarrass the organization with a loss which as their champion is why they kept wanting him go drop the title with worked shoot style matches before he fought more in the UFC, so clearly the top pancrase guys themselves did not have great confidence in his ability even in those days.

You're right that the Pancrase suits didn't like Ken competing in the UFC as the King of Pancrase (anymore than the UFC liked Miletich getting choked out by Jutaro Nakao in Superbrawl as their champion or Randy getting subbed by Enson as their champion), and their lack of support is what soured Ken on the organization and is the reason that he only fought for them a few times after giving up the title to Suzuki. Then again, bureaucrats are supposed to worry and micromanage. The Pancrase suits in the boardrooms may have been worrying about their brand and about losing face, but in the gyms and in the locker rooms, everyone knew that Ken was (literally) King. For their part, Funaki and Suzuki had complete confidence in Ken.

From an old interview with Funaki:

Colosimo: What were your thoughts on Ken Shamrock going over to fight in the first UFC events? Was it dangerous to Pancrase’s reputation?

Funaki: I was in complete agreement about him going. Thinking about it, I wanted him to compete on the world stage as much as possible, and I had confidence in Shamrock at the time, as a representative of Pancrase, so when I could, I would go to coach and corner him and think out, plan strategy for him. I did that many times, I think three times. I cooperated with him 100%.

Ruina: Did you think about if he were to lose?

Funaki: If he were to lose, I thought he wasn’t going to lose, so that’s why I acted as coach and cornerman for him. I thought about the best strategies for him to use to win. Shamrock said, “If you come out there with me, I definitely won’t lose.”

Then if you look at Royce 2

See above.

Then in terms of actually using catch in latter part of his career.

You said it all. He was too busted up to grapple effectively, so he turned into a sprawl-and-brawler, but his broken down body plus his quickly vanishing chin...that comeback just wasn't in the cards.

Would Saku be considered a catch wrestler? Then I pick Saku

Finally someone remembers Sakuraba. Easy GOAT in the modern era.

"Greatest American Catch Wrestler." But yeah, Saku rules. I would've given anything to have seen him on the Pancrase circuit mixing it up with Ken, Frank, Funaki, Suzuki, Yamada, etc. People went apeshit over his matches with Pancrase reject Vernon White and Carlos Newton, I can't even imagine the classic barnburners that he would've had with the Pancrase crowd

I didn't find that article, but I did find this Sherdog thread about this exact same topic from 2005. enjoy @Bullitt68 @TheMaster

That's a hell of a find. It's a truly eerie experience when you read posts that you made a decade ago. But that was a fun thread to go back through, and it was fun seeing those old names. @Kforcer was always one of the most insanely knowledgeable guys around and he was the only person I've ever come across on here who actually knew more about Pancrase than I did. I learned a lot from that guy.

And, speaking of Ken's insane strength and his positional dominance, I loved hearing Title Fight's and Doughbelly's secondhand and firsthand stories.

A guy i trained and managed for awhile moved out to Ken's in Reno and fought for him for awhile. Said he was a fvcking beast on the mat and crushed all his students.

No suprise there tho. His quality of student has dropped pretty disgnificantly (sp?)

Oh, believe me, I know. Ken has this skull crushing North-South that you have to feel to believe. I used to play some pretty high level judo and I've never been so thoroughly and painfully positionally smothered and dominated.

That's how I got to roll with Ken. Though guys like me didn't really get to "roll" with Ken. It was more like he used you and then discarded you after he was done.

Frank took a bit longer to hit his stride than Ken, but I do think by the end of his career he was the more versatile, well rounded grappler. Ken had little ground game from off his back, whereas Frank was skilled enough to give anyone a hard time no matter where the grappling went.

I see your "more versatile" for Frank and I raise you a more devastating for Ken. Frank did develop a good guard game, and you're right, he had more options from more positions, but you have to weigh that against the fact that he was never anywhere near the finisher that Ken was.

I think prime Barnett would clearly have an advantage over Ken, this is a guy who actually came off best grappling with a prime Nog, better wrestler, better top game fighter and tougher.

No way. Josh is a better guard game fighter, and by a considerable margin, but Ken's top game was next level beastly.

Barnett imo most impressive wrestling display was when he out wrestled randy and smashed him

To be fair to Randy, Josh didn't outwrestle him. He gave him serious fits with his TDD and clinch work up against the fence; his guard game and elbows from the bottom on the ground thwarted Randy's top game offense; and, of course, he managed to sweep Randy, control him, and pound him out. But Randy was still the one controlling the wrestling game and taking Josh down in both rounds.

 

[scottjoebob]

Personally, I've always thought that the reason for the disparity in his style of fighting in Pancrase versus the UFC is that he knew in Pancrase that, if the shit hit the fan, he always had the rope escapes. He was a lot more dynamic as you said and took a lot more chances in Pancrase because the consequences stemming from a miscalculation weren't as extreme, from losing if you get caught in a submission (like his first fight with Royce) to getting cut or knocked out with GNP.



The competition in Pancrase was a lot stiffer than the UFC competition back then, especially from 1993-1995. By 1996, the UFC was just starting to get legit talent with the influx of people like Frye, Coleman, Kerr, and then shortly after Randy, Vitor, etc. But in the beginning, Pancrase was years ahead of the UFC pool both in terms of their individual skill-sets and in their abilities to mix striking, wrestling, and submissions.



Two things:

1) I'm hard-pressed to come up with any fighter from the early days who was a more "positionally dominant" fighter than Ken. Obviously, GNP wasn't a thing in Pancrase, and in the UFC, Ken really only utilized GNP against Christophe Leininger at UFC 3 and Brian Johnston at UU96. So people like Coleman, Kerr, and to a lesser extent Randleman deserve to be ranked higher than Ken on the GNP front. But purely on the grappling front, people like Coleman, Kerr, and Randleman were outstanding TD artists, and Kerr in particular was not only massive but had an ADCC background and legit submission skills, but Ken's speed, balance, and control - not to mention his strength, which, according to Maurice Smith, who was on the mat with both Coleman and Randleman as well as Ken, was on another level - was so impressive. Not a single person who's been on the mat with Ken has ever not been at a loss for words when trying to convey how strong he was. As I mentioned, Coleman himself described his experience rolling with Ken while he was at the Lion's Den as "humbling."

2) Regarding Ken/Royce 2, I was actually talking about it quite a bit in another thread recently. I'll just leave my remarks here for you if you're interested.









The farther back in history we go, though, the murkier things start to get as far as "verification" goes. It's like the "How would Bruce Lee have done in the UFC?" stuff. Whether good, bad, great, terrible, or anything else in between, without competition footage, it's hard to gauge what it would've been like had one of those old school guys gone head-to-head with a Ken Shamrock or a Minoru Suzuki or a Josh Barnett, etc. Personally, I've not seen footage of any fights with any of those old school catch guys. Though, obviously, if you guys - or anyone else reading this thread - have some cool shit to post for me to watch, please do so

I miss these types of threads with people eager to learn about/discuss the old school shit.

Let's not pretend that Royce didn't surprise 99% of the martial arts community that night. He sure as hell didn't tap Ken in 60 seconds once he'd lost the element of surprise.



You're right that the Pancrase suits didn't like Ken competing in the UFC as the King of Pancrase (anymore than the UFC liked Miletich getting choked out by Jutaro Nakao in Superbrawl as their champion or Randy getting subbed by Enson as their champion), and their lack of support is what soured Ken on the organization and is the reason that he only fought for them a few times after giving up the title to Suzuki. Then again, bureaucrats are supposed to worry and micromanage. The Pancrase suits in the boardrooms may have been worrying about their brand and about losing face, but in the gyms and in the locker rooms, everyone knew that Ken was (literally) King. For their part, Funaki and Suzuki had complete confidence in Ken.

From an old interview with Funaki:





See above.



You said it all. He was too busted up to grapple effectively, so he turned into a sprawl-and-brawler, but his broken down body plus his quickly vanishing chin...that comeback just wasn't in the cards.




"Greatest American Catch Wrestler." But yeah, Saku rules. I would've given anything to have seen him on the Pancrase circuit mixing it up with Ken, Frank, Funaki, Suzuki, Yamada, etc. People went apeshit over his matches with Pancrase reject Vernon White and Carlos Newton, I can't even imagine the classic barnburners that he would've had with the Pancrase crowd



That's a hell of a find. It's a truly eerie experience when you read posts that you made a decade ago. But that was a fun thread to go back through, and it was fun seeing those old names. @Kforcer was always one of the most insanely knowledgeable guys around and he was the only person I've ever come across on here who actually knew more about Pancrase than I did. I learned a lot from that guy.

And, speaking of Ken's insane strength and his positional dominance, I loved hearing Title Fight's and Doughbelly's secondhand and firsthand stories.







I see your "more versatile" for Frank and I raise you a more devastating for Ken. Frank did develop a good guard game, and you're right, he had more options from more positions, but you have to weigh that against the fact that he was never anywhere near the finisher that Ken was.



No way. Josh is a better guard game fighter, and by a considerable margin, but Ken's top game was next level beastly.



To be fair to Randy, Josh didn't outwrestle him. He gave him serious fits with his TDD and clinch work up against the fence; his guard game and elbows from the bottom on the ground thwarted Randy's top game offense; and, of course, he managed to sweep Randy, control him, and pound him out. But Randy was still the one controlling the wrestling game and taking Josh down in both rounds.

Yeah quality footage is hard to find , but OP didnt ask If Shamrock is the 'Greatest American Catch Wrestler' in MMA history , he asked " Is Ken Shamrock really the 'Greatest American Catch Wrestler' in history? " . Since Ken never competed (that I know of) in any submission grappling competitions , he has no claim to that , as its a different sport . Its the same as claiming that Frank Gotch is the greatest American MMA fighter despite never having participated in MMA .

 

[TheMaster]

That was a very long but great post. It great that there people who take the history of the sport and analysis of fights and technique more seriously.

However you still havent addressed that:

1. Royce subbing Ken in less than a minute speaks volumes as Royce was not even considered a top tier BJJ guy. It was Ken, not Royce who was tentative in the 2nd fight and widely acknowleged that Ken was fighting for the draw. If Ken had any faith in his submission grappling and control he would have been more active. Its not the fault of the much smaller guy if he is on the bottom to wait for openings to counter. But Ken did not give opening because he was affraid to try to advance position. If really wanted to prove a point he could have tried more gnp but instead chose a passive lay and pray. His aim was to survive half an hour which he did, and it significantly made him famous in early UFC such were the Gracies rep. You also exaggerate Royces condition, he could fought on without trouble the punch mafe him look worse that is all

2. His lack of displaying hardly any kind of catch skills or techniques outside of pancrase and the very early UFCs and one or two other exceptions like the Frye fight. The Frye fight showed Ken COULD still grapple well on the ground after his return. So his choosing not but instead becoming a sprawl n brawl punchbag says much about his comimtment to catch He was always more of a muscle fighter and technique was second often in full mma. If we want to call a guy the 'GOAT of US Catch' dont you think he should actually use the style alot more when he has the chance?

 

[Bullitt68]

That was a very long but great post. It great that there people who take the history of the sport and analysis of fights and technique more seriously.

Royce subbing Ken in less than a minute speaks volumes as Royce was not even considered a top tier BJJ guy.

It speaks volumes...to how little Ken respected the competition at that event. Remember his post-fight interview after he heel hooked Pat Smith? He was asked how his UFC experience compared to his Pancrase experience and he said that beating Pat Smith was easier than any of his Pancrase fights because Smith doesn't know how to do any submissions. Then his next opponent is a skinny little Karate guy in a gi? Ken was ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that nobody on that card knew a heel hook from a wheel kick and that he'd effortlessly tap them all. Look at the disdain that he shows for Royce's shot and how carelessly he drops back for the leg lock. If he ever went for a leg in Pancrase, he made sure that he was in a good position, he made sure that he had control of your limbs, and he made sure that there were no counters open to you, but against Royce, he just dropped back like him getting the submission was a foregone conclusion. What that fight shows is that Royce was schooled in leg locks and knew what to expect from the catch wrestling Ken but that Ken didn't have a clue about BJJ and knew - and cared - nothing about who Royce was or what he was bringing to the table.

It was Ken, not Royce who was tentative in the 2nd fight

I addressed this in the posts that I included in which I was discussing Ken/Royce 2. In short, it takes two to make a boring fight and Royce deserves blame himself for using his gi to control Ken's head to keep him from doing anything and not attempting a single submission from his guard.

If Ken had any faith in his submission grappling and control he would have been more active.

It wasn't a question of faith, it was a question of intent. Ken wanted to prove a point: He wanted to go directly into Royce's guard and dare him to submit him so that he could show Royce and the world that their first fight was a fluke and that Royce would never again in a million years be able to touch him. Royce, for his part, had no intention of taking the offensive and was content to sit in his guard and do absolutely nothing.

It was new in MMA at the time, but it's old hat now: When you get two guys in the cage neither of whom are willing to make the first move, you get a stalemate. If you want to say that Ken is more to blame for the stalemate for whatever reason(s), fair enough, but let's not pretend that Royce is blameless and that it's all Ken's fault.

You also exaggerate Royces condition, he could fought on without trouble the punch mafe him look worse that is all

Dude, Royce looked rough exiting the cage, having to steady himself on the people walking next to him and being held up by his gi from the back. Ken's all smiles, raising his arms, putting on his King of Pancrase robe. Royce was exhausted and took a long, tired, and stumbly walk backstage.

His lack of displaying hardly any kind of catch skills or techniques outside of pancrase and the very early UFCs and one or two other exceptions like the Frye fight.

I already addressed this (well, technically, you already addressed this and I agreed with what you said):

You said it all. He was too busted up to grapple effectively, so he turned into a sprawl-and-brawler, but his broken down body plus his quickly vanishing chin...that comeback just wasn't in the cards.

Ken was in horrible physical shape for the first few years of his comeback. And then, by the time his injuries had healed up or he'd gotten surgeries, his chin was gone. He looked sharp in the Franklin fight, picking that ankle and locking up a heel hook that sent Franklin to the hospital after the fight, but after his WWF career, his body became an extra opponent that he had to contend with each and every time he stepped in there. I hardly think that being old, broken down, and years past his prime serves as valid criteria to disqualify him as one of the most legit catch wrestlers to ever compete in MMA.

If we want to call a guy the 'GOAT of US Catch' dont you think he should actually use the style alot more when he has the chance?

We call BJ "The Prodigy" for his insane BJJ skills but how often would he take guys down and work a submission game compared to the number of times he avoided the ground at all costs and opted to sprawl and brawl? Added to which, having "the chance" and having the ability are two different things, and, as I've been saying, Ken was fighting well past his expiration date during the time that you're scrutinizing as "uncatchy."

 

[Big Tuppy Hole]

Theres a fair chance that catch wrestlers in the early part of the 1900s where better than Ken. Catch wtestling is a mainly a forgotten art

 

[Big Tuppy Hole]

And how beastly is that move of pinning Bas' arms to the mat to give his leg clearance for the spin? In both of their fights, Ken didn't just make Bas look outmatched, he made him look utterly helpless.

In addition to that beautiful spin to the kneebar finish in their second fight, I also love the way that Ken finished their first fight with that lightning fast RNC out of the scramble.

Prime Ken was something else, man.

Just noticed he locked up the choke with the hand on the forehead. Is this typical if a catch rear naked choke?

 

[Oooxente]

Great thread with a lot of good convos going.
IMHO/ ignorant as i am ,i would think Barnett and Saku when a think of “modern era”catch wrestlers royalty.

Have zero problems being proven wrong though.

 

[Pierced7681]

Personally, I've always thought that the reason for the disparity in his style of fighting in Pancrase versus the UFC is that he knew in Pancrase that, if the shit hit the fan, he always had the rope escapes. He was a lot more dynamic as you said and took a lot more chances in Pancrase because the consequences stemming from a miscalculation weren't as extreme, from losing if you get caught in a submission (like his first fight with Royce) to getting cut or knocked out with GNP.



The competition in Pancrase was a lot stiffer than the UFC competition back then, especially from 1993-1995. By 1996, the UFC was just starting to get legit talent with the influx of people like Frye, Coleman, Kerr, and then shortly after Randy, Vitor, etc. But in the beginning, Pancrase was years ahead of the UFC pool both in terms of their individual skill-sets and in their abilities to mix striking, wrestling, and submissions.



Two things:

1) I'm hard-pressed to come up with any fighter from the early days who was a more "positionally dominant" fighter than Ken. Obviously, GNP wasn't a thing in Pancrase, and in the UFC, Ken really only utilized GNP against Christophe Leininger at UFC 3 and Brian Johnston at UU96. So people like Coleman, Kerr, and to a lesser extent Randleman deserve to be ranked higher than Ken on the GNP front. But purely on the grappling front, people like Coleman, Kerr, and Randleman were outstanding TD artists, and Kerr in particular was not only massive but had an ADCC background and legit submission skills, but Ken's speed, balance, and control - not to mention his strength, which, according to Maurice Smith, who was on the mat with both Coleman and Randleman as well as Ken, was on another level - was so impressive. Not a single person who's been on the mat with Ken has ever not been at a loss for words when trying to convey how strong he was. As I mentioned, Coleman himself described his experience rolling with Ken while he was at the Lion's Den as "humbling."

2) Regarding Ken/Royce 2, I was actually talking about it quite a bit in another thread recently. I'll just leave my remarks here for you if you're interested.









The farther back in history we go, though, the murkier things start to get as far as "verification" goes. It's like the "How would Bruce Lee have done in the UFC?" stuff. Whether good, bad, great, terrible, or anything else in between, without competition footage, it's hard to gauge what it would've been like had one of those old school guys gone head-to-head with a Ken Shamrock or a Minoru Suzuki or a Josh Barnett, etc. Personally, I've not seen footage of any fights with any of those old school catch guys. Though, obviously, if you guys - or anyone else reading this thread - have some cool shit to post for me to watch, please do so

I miss these types of threads with people eager to learn about/discuss the old school shit.

Let's not pretend that Royce didn't surprise 99% of the martial arts community that night. He sure as hell didn't tap Ken in 60 seconds once he'd lost the element of surprise.



You're right that the Pancrase suits didn't like Ken competing in the UFC as the King of Pancrase (anymore than the UFC liked Miletich getting choked out by Jutaro Nakao in Superbrawl as their champion or Randy getting subbed by Enson as their champion), and their lack of support is what soured Ken on the organization and is the reason that he only fought for them a few times after giving up the title to Suzuki. Then again, bureaucrats are supposed to worry and micromanage. The Pancrase suits in the boardrooms may have been worrying about their brand and about losing face, but in the gyms and in the locker rooms, everyone knew that Ken was (literally) King. For their part, Funaki and Suzuki had complete confidence in Ken.

From an old interview with Funaki:





See above.



You said it all. He was too busted up to grapple effectively, so he turned into a sprawl-and-brawler, but his broken down body plus his quickly vanishing chin...that comeback just wasn't in the cards.




"Greatest American Catch Wrestler." But yeah, Saku rules. I would've given anything to have seen him on the Pancrase circuit mixing it up with Ken, Frank, Funaki, Suzuki, Yamada, etc. People went apeshit over his matches with Pancrase reject Vernon White and Carlos Newton, I can't even imagine the classic barnburners that he would've had with the Pancrase crowd



That's a hell of a find. It's a truly eerie experience when you read posts that you made a decade ago. But that was a fun thread to go back through, and it was fun seeing those old names. @Kforcer was always one of the most insanely knowledgeable guys around and he was the only person I've ever come across on here who actually knew more about Pancrase than I did. I learned a lot from that guy.

And, speaking of Ken's insane strength and his positional dominance, I loved hearing Title Fight's and Doughbelly's secondhand and firsthand stories.







I see your "more versatile" for Frank and I raise you a more devastating for Ken. Frank did develop a good guard game, and you're right, he had more options from more positions, but you have to weigh that against the fact that he was never anywhere near the finisher that Ken was.



No way. Josh is a better guard game fighter, and by a considerable margin, but Ken's top game was next level beastly.



To be fair to Randy, Josh didn't outwrestle him. He gave him serious fits with his TDD and clinch work up against the fence; his guard game and elbows from the bottom on the ground thwarted Randy's top game offense; and, of course, he managed to sweep Randy, control him, and pound him out. But Randy was still the one controlling the wrestling game and taking Josh down in both rounds.

I’ll ask you straight up, how do you think Ken would have faired against Allan Goes? Frank fought him to a draw, do you think Ken would have finished him?

Do you think prime Ken would have beaten Kohsaka, Enson, Kevin Jackson, Zinoviev, Jeremy Horn, and Tito? I’ll give Ken a pass on losing to Tito three times as he was out of his prime then.

Always good talking old school mma with you man, really cool to see someone else so passionate about it.

 

[Bullitt68]

Just noticed he locked up the choke with the hand on the forehead. Is this typical if a catch rear naked choke?

I honestly have no idea. My only grappling training has been BJJ. I just love Pancrase so much that I've picked up some catch knowledge. I'm no groundhog expert, though. You'd be better off asking that question in the official catch wrestling thread in the Grappling section. Barnett's actually posted a bunch in there. Who knows? Maybe he'll be the one to set you straight on catch-style RNCs

I’ll ask you straight up, how do you think Ken would have faired against Allan Goes? Frank fought him to a draw, do you think Ken would have finished him?

Do you think prime Ken would have beaten Kohsaka, Enson, Kevin Jackson, Zinoviev, Jeremy Horn, and Tito? I’ll give Ken a pass on losing to Tito three times as he was out of his prime then.

I'll go one at a time, and I'll give you my takes both Pancrase-rules and UFC-rules.

Allan Goes: I'd pick Ken but Goes' grappling style could've caused problems for him. First off, while not the best wrestler, Goes had a decent shot and was able to take down and control both Vernon White (maybe not the biggest accomplishment, but Vernon was pretty slippery on the ground yet Goes had his back pinned to the mat for the majority of the fight) and Carl Malenko (again, not the biggest accomplishment, but he was a skilled freestyle and catch wrestler who Goes took down multiple times, controlled for the majority of the fight from on top, and tapped with an arm-triangle). Based on his inability to put away Vernon and Alex Stiebling, I can't imagine him finishing Ken even if he managed to take him down, but he still could've caused Ken problems. And if Ken took Goes down, Goes' leg/guard work could've frustrated him the way it frustrated Sakuraba. Still, even giving Goes his due, I think that Ken would've taken him down early and managed to control him from on top. I don't know that he would've finished Goes - though, if we're talking Pancrase-rules, the chances go up quite a bit as Ken probably would've taken more chances with leg locks - but in either a Pancrase-rules or a UFC-rules fight, I think that Ken takes him down and controls him.

TK: I think that Ken would absolutely beat TK. Kimo basically had his way with TK before he gassed at the 10-minute mark and he wasn't able to put away Pete Williams. I think that Ken would've just taken him down and controlled him like Kimo but more thoroughly. I doubt that Ken would've been able to submit him, though, even if it were Pancrase-rules. Only if TK got reckless (which he sometimes did) and Ken managed to lock up a choke on him could I see him finishing TK, otherwise I think that he would've just controlled positions and wore him down en route to a decision.

Enson Inoue: Fairly easy win for Ken either way. He'd take him right down and absolutely shut him down similar to the way that Kerr did. I could also see him locking up a choke if Enson got frustrated and neglected his defense trying to fight his way off of his back.

Kevin Jackson: Again, fairly easy win for Ken either rule-set. Despite not being someone over whom Ken would have the wrestling advantage, I don't imagine Ken having too hard a time snatching up one of Kevin's legs.

Igor Zinoviev: I don't think that Ken would have as easy a time with him as Frank did, but I do think that Ken would've notched a pretty routine win over him. Obviously, Zinoviev would've been more dangerous under UFC-rules, but either way, I think that Ken would've taken him down with ease (hell, Osami Shibuya managed to take Zinoviev down repeatedly save for the couple times Zinoviev muscled his way out, and he sure as shit wasn't going to outmuscle Ken) and controlled him. Also, Zinoviev gassed pretty hard after locking horns with John Lober. If he struggled with the 200-pound Lober, imagine the hell that locking up with the 225-pound Ken would've been for him. Ken may very well have been able to take him down, wear him out, and tap him late, though probably not with a leg lock given Zinoviev's Sambo background.

Jeremy Horn: I think that Ken would unquestionably manhandle him. Horn was slick, so he may have been able to avoid getting tapped; then again, he'd often space out on defense, in which case Ken may have made him pay with a choke or a leg lock. Either way, I don't see Horn having anything for Ken.

Tito Ortiz: Prime Ken mauls Tito. Tito never had the fastest or most explosive shots, so I have to imagine that, as it happened in Tito's fights with Vladimir Matyushenko and Randy, they would've spent a lot of time in the clinch. After seeing the way that Ken dealt with the 260-pound Greco-man in Severn in the clinch in their first fight, the way that he effortlessly picked up and dumped the 270-pound Kimo on his back as if he weighed 170 in their first fight, and the way that he was throwing the 240-pound Ryushi Yanagisawa around the ring in their fight, I can't imagine Tito having a fun time clinched up with Ken. Tito's game was very much a control and muscle game, but he wouldn't have been able to control Ken and he certainly wouldn't have been able to outmuscle Ken. I think that, if Ken didn't end up catching Tito with a guillotine the way that he caught Severn (and the way that Mezger caught Tito), then he would've ended up breaking him mentally the way that Randy did by shutting down his TD game, taking him down, forcing him to fight off of his back, and discouraging him by controlling him from on top, possibly even catching him with a choke in a scramble as he desperately tried to get back to his feet in a Ken/Bas I sort of scenario.

Always good talking old school mma with you man, really cool to see someone else so passionate about it.