Is Ken Shamrock really the 'Greatest American Catch Wrestler' in history?

Yes he has purest lineage and prime he showed what he could do
Prime josh couldn't hang with prime ken
 
mma_genius said:
Ken Shamrock is the greatest at absolutely nothing. He is far more product of hype and his mouth than actual accomplishments.

A brawler who like leglocks. Moonboot pancrase was just ridiculous with its smacks instead of punches.
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First hw champ in us and Japan
Created first training camp
Trained many UFC champs
Yeah a nobody
 
Bullitt68 said:
Compared to what? I stressed the "in MMA" part of your OP in an effort to signal that, as far as MMA is concerned, Pancrase was the pinnacle and Ken was the original King of Pancrase, which is as great an accomplishment as you could've hoped to achieve in this facet of the game.



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Who in Pancrase was inexperienced on the ground besides Bas? The Pancrase crew - most notably Funaki and Suzuki but also Fuke (who'd been training with Funaki and Suzuki for years while on the pro-wrestling circuit), Inagaki (who was training Judo from the time that he was 12), Takahashi (who not only had a legit amateur wrestling career but who Funaki considered the best among the younger Japanese fighters and who he had show Ken the ropes in the pre-Pancrase Fujiwara-Gumi days), and Yamada (who'd been training with Satoru Sayama, the legendary Japanese pro-wrestler who taught Yuki Nakai and Rumina Sato and who founded Shooto among other things, since the late 1980s) - consisted of skilled Japanese grapplers. Grappling was the name of the game in Pancrase.



I can't argue with that. It's definitely a shame that, other than the BJJ fever sparked by Royce's early UFC run, there hasn't been a comparable craze for other stuff like Judo (even with the likes of Karo and Ronda throwing people around), Sambo, or catch wrestling.



And the innovations in leg locks from Dean Lister to the Danaher death squad guys has really kicked things into another gear.

(Ironically, sometime in the mid-00s IIRC, Eddie Bravo said something about Ken's anachronistic grappling style and about how leg locks don't work in MMA, and Ken responded by inviting Eddie to come and train with him to learn about leg locks - which is doubly ironic considering seeing Royce at UFC 2 and studying Ken's old school instructionals inspired Eddie to start grappling. Fast-forward to today and Eddie can't stop talking about how amazing leg locks are and the EBI is the biggest platform for the evolution of grappling, which consists of the incorporation of leg locks.)



In order to answer this, I'd have to know what constitutes taking a lineage seriously.



Really? On what are you basing this claim?



How so?



As I've stressed, my concern is MMA-focused, and as far as the MMA landscape is concerned, Ken is my pick for the GOAT American catch wrestler.



tenor.gif




Nah. Frank developed a good defensive guard to stifle Tito, but he still had zero TDD and was getting outgrappled by people like Kiuma Kunioku and John Lober, neither of whom should've been able to get the better of him at that point in his career. Unlike Frank, Ken never lost those fights where he would've had no business losing.
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Frank took a bit longer to hit his stride than Ken, but I do think by the end of his career he was the more versatile, well rounded grappler. Ken had little ground game from off his back, whereas Frank was skilled enough to give anyone a hard time no matter where the grappling went.
 
TheMaster said:
Have heard this claim bandied about recently and although a longtime Ken fan, had never considered it.

For:
-He has the lineage and pedigree from Karl Gotch to Funaki who then taught Ken, and was pioneer applying the style in US and Japanese MMA.
-He trained elite grapplers like Frank Shamrock
Tapped Greco master Severn and Bas although Bas was green on the ground then.
-Apparently schooled alot of guys in the early days doing sub grappling before injuries took hold.

Against: Josh Barnett, perhaps others

Also he 'forgot' how to finish a closed position rear naked choke vs Kimbo or panicked and applied a pro wrestling sleeper hold instead. I hope to #### that was actually a work otherwise ####, and it would severely damage his above claim but still...

So arguments for and against. At least in MMA he probably has a case but I imagine there are some catch guys rolling in their graves at this statement.
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We are supposed to believe ken can sink a rear naked on Bas but not Kimbo.

OK
 
Idonotbelieveit said:
Yes he has purest lineage and prime he showed what he could do
Prime josh couldn't hang with prime ken
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I think prime Barnett would clearly have an advantage over Ken, this is a guy who actually came off best grappling with a prime Nog, better wrestler, better top game fighter and tougher.
 
The world's most dangerous man
 
moreorless87 said:
I think prime Barnett would clearly have an advantage over Ken, this is a guy who actually came off best grappling with a prime Nog, better wrestler, better top game fighter and tougher.
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I don't think better wrestler .
Top game Barnett maybe be best ken was like. Boa constrictor though according to people
Similar styles you may have a point on toughness Barnett is gritty where ken has lacked
 
I think you really need to pin down who is under consideration for catch, since catch doesn't always have the cleanest lineages, and because there has been a fair amount of cross-pollination in styles over the years.

Also, are we using the "against peers" standards, or in absolute terms?

In what context? MMA? Submission grappling? Grappling under specific rulesets associated with Catch in the past?

If we are speaking in absolute terms, Barnett is definitely better than Shamrock. No disrespect to the old school, but come on...other than gym strength, Barnett is literally better at everything that matters.
 
TheAmericanGazelle said:
I think you really need to pin down who is under consideration for catch, since catch doesn't always have the cleanest lineages, and because there has been a fair amount of cross-pollination in styles over the years.

Also, are we using the "against peers" standards, or in absolute terms?

In what context? MMA? Submission grappling? Grappling under specific rulesets associated with Catch in the past?

If we are speaking in absolute terms, Barnett is definitely better than Shamrock. No disrespect to the old school, but come on...other than gym strength, Barnett is literally better at everything that matters.
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Karl gotch -fujiwara- funaki -ken
Pure
 
Idonotbelieveit said:
I don't think better wrestler .
Top game Barnett maybe be best ken was like. Boa constrictor though according to people
Similar styles you may have a point on toughness Barnett is gritty where ken has lacked
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Ken was taking down a lot of opponents who didn't really have much defence in his pancrase days, Barnett was dealing with a lot better defence during his prime years.

Don't think its far to judge Barnett bu his recent UFC run just as you wouldn't judge Ken by his career from 2002 onwards, he's lost a lot of mobility that clearly hampers his wrestling.
 
moreorless87 said:
Ken was taking down a lot of opponents who didn't really have much defence in his pancrase days, Barnett was dealing with a lot better defence during his prime years.
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Can't argue with that but ken out wrestled Greco and freestyle master Severn
 
Idonotbelieveit said:
Can't argue with that but ken out wrestled Greco and freestyle master Severn
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Seven wasn't really on the level of someone like Coleman though(as evidence by their fight) and was very limited in terms of standup and sub game, he got caught leaving his neck open going for a deep takedown in the first fight and then reversed going for an ankle pick from range to avoid striking in the second.
 
moreorless87 said:
Seven wasn't really on the level of someone like Coleman though(as evidence by their fight) and was very limited in terms of standup and sub game, he got caught leaving his neck open going for a deep takedown in the first fight and then reversed going for an ankle pick from range to avoid striking in the second.
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Accomplishement wise He was Severn is one of the most accomplished wrestlers ever to compete many don't know his freestyle background he's known as a Greco guy
And he was I think 38 in their first fight
Ken Severn was like gsp hughes guy with no background owning
Coleman ken in 97 would have been epic
 
moreorless87 said:
Ken was taking down a lot of opponents who didn't really have much defence in his pancrase days, Barnett was dealing with a lot better defence during his prime years.

Don't think its far to judge Barnett bu his recent UFC run just as you wouldn't judge Ken by his career from 2002 onwards, he's lost a lot of mobility that clearly hampers his wrestling.
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Barnett imo most impressive wrestling display was when he out wrestled randy and smashed him
 
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