Is it time or hate that prevents Jon Jones being the LHW GOAT in some eyes?

You can hindsight the fuck out of his LHW run, but his accomplishments are clearly enough to put him in discussion for LHW GOAT: consecutive wins, total title defenses, total top 10 wins(if you give a shit about rankings)
 
Jones is the clear LHW GOAT. You can pick apart others candidates runs just as easy. And their longevity are not pretty.
 
You can hindsight the fuck out of his LHW run, but his accomplishments are clearly enough to put him in discussion for LHW GOAT: consecutive wins, total title defenses, total top 10 wins(if you give a shit about rankings)

Imo in a sport where there ARE no official rankings (just what people make up) and title shots aren't exactly given off any sort of clear pecking order the one thing that you always look at when determining the greatness of a fighter is:

Who's beaten who

and if you're being meticulous (like trying to go for a P4P GOAT discussion) how they've beaten their opponents

Those are what's objective
 
Well who is better than jones? . Who else?Tito? He held the belt when the best fighters were in Pride,
.

Problem is Tito beat the best fighter in Pride to win belt in the belt in the first place. He even did it in Japan, giving Wandy home court advantage.
 
.

Problem is Tito beat the best fighter in Pride to win belt in the belt in the first place. He even did it in Japan, giving Wandy home court advantage.

Yes. He beat the best fighter in Pride. Before said fighter ever set foot in a Pride ring...
 
Time matters to a lot of people. Just today one of the top football writers in the US was saying he thought Jimmie Johnson should be considered for the Hall of Fame, because he won two Super Bowls, but that most people thought nine years of head coaching in the NFL was too short a record to judge by.
 
1. Jones
2. Chuck
3. Shogun
4. Wand
5. Rampage
6. Rashad
7. Hendo
8. Tito
9. Arona
10. Forrest

Honorable mention and hard to rank is Randy at lhw. In 2003-2004, he was about as good as someone could be, destroying Chuck, Tito, and Vitor.
 
But for 5 years Shogun tore up the LHW/Pride MW division and beat cream of the crop guys during that run. He tore through the elite for that era. Even past his prime/5 year run Shogun was able to nab big wins in the UFC despite being physically deteriorated. Just going to show that even though you're past your prime it doesn't mean you're not still dangerous.

I'm not trying to argue that Shogun is the GOAT regardless of how I personally feel because objectively you can make arguments for a couple of other guys. But don't try to sell Shogun short. Because the fact of the matter is that for a period of about 4-5 years EVERYONE recognized Shogun as the best LHW on the planet. That can't be forgotten.

What is this 4-5 years that you're talking about?

Rua beat Rampage in April of 2005 and basically "arrived" in his Prime. He then went on to win the Grand Prix that year and established himself as top dog.

He then dominated up to February 2007 when he KO'd Overeem, which from the Rampage fight was a span of less than 2 years. Then he lost to Forrest Griffin where all of his fans started saying he was past his prime because of knee injuries.

Jones beat Rua to become the champ March of 2011 and most recently beat Gus in September 2013, a span of over 2 years.

Jones has been regarded as the best LHW on the planet longer than Rua ever was.

You can argue that Shogun is greater based on his Machida victory adding to his PRIDE accomplishments, but his reign as clear #1 in PRIDE was much, much shorter than you suggest.
 
Last edited:
Time, I think. Mike Tyson was looking like he'd be a GOT contender, early in his career.

Cus died, leeches removed Tyson from the training team that actually had his interests at heart, and much better competition stepped up, compared to the weak roster that Tyson roared through on his rise.

Now Tyson is more of a "could have been," and not in too many all-time great lists.

With Bones being in his mid 20s, with possibly a decade or more to go in his career, it's too early to pass judgement, I think.
 
What is this 4-5 years that you're talking about?

Rua beat Rampage in April of 2005 and basically "arrived" in his Prime. He then went on to win the Grand Prix that year and established himself as top dog.

He then dominated up to February 2007 when he KO'd Overeem, which from the Rampage fight was a span of less than 2 years. Then he lost to Forrest Griffin where all of his fans started saying he was past his prime because of knee injuries.

Jones beat Rua to become the champ March of 2011 and most recently beat Gus in September 2013, a span of over 2 years.

Jones has been regarded as the best LHW on the planet longer than Rua ever was.

You can argue that Shogun is greater based on his Machida victory adding to his PRIDE accomplishments, but his reign as clear #1 in PRIDE was much, much shorter than you suggest.

What I'm referring to is that Shogun started his run in 2003 when he arrived in Pride and it ended with Overeem II in 2007 (he went on to rupture his ACL during the long layoff everyone had during the UFC-Pride merger; Shogun didn't begin truly proving himself to be the legend he became until he fought Rampage in the opening round of the 05 MW GP I agree with that). Is that not about 4-5 years? I mean correct my math. He was a rising star from 03-04. 2005 came around and he just tore a hole through the best MMA had to offer in his division.

I mean really if we want to get into this and do a full-on comparison we have to dissect who JBJ has beaten and who Shogun has beaten across both their entire careers up til this point. How many of them were young, in-their-prime or close to prime fighters? The only guys that I could see anyone giving Shogun guff about is beating over the hill Coleman and Chuck. But if we're gonna go about it like that then Rampage and Shogun should be taken into account that they were years removed from their prime as well as Chael and Vitor being recognized for being MW's moving up and being notably undersized vs. JBJ who walks around looking like a HW anyway. But that's if we're gonna use the same logic when critiquing both fighters.


Does it really HAVE to be just fans of Shogun that recognize that he ruptured his ACL 3 times across both knees? Is it impossible for people with a sense of logic and reason to recognize this fact?


I want to ask you a completely benign question and I don't mean anything by it. I'm just wondering. Did you watch or have you ever seen Shogun's run from 03-07?
 
Last edited:
Jones is already the LHW GOAT. If not him then I'd like to hear who is and why?
 
Jones beats every LHW in the history of MMA, All of them. His size and athleticism are too much for any past or current legend to handle. I'd only give a small chance of winning to Randy Couture cause he was big and strong enough to out wrestle Jones and to Chuck Liddell who could put anybody to sleep with a single punch. Anyone who doesn't think Jones is GOAT is a hater.
 
I think it's pretty obvious that Jones, Chuck, Shogun, and Wand are all up there in the talk.

I'm not even a Jones fan but I'd go with Jones > Shogun > Wand > Chuck.

Jones's whole run has just been pretty nuts, barring the recent fights, he's hard to discredit.

Shogun's 2005 run and way he did it makes him easy number 2 for me.

Wand is about the same, his reign in Pride was epic.

Chuck is just Chuck, hard to discredit.
 
Last edited:
he may suck as person, but he's arguably the LHW Goat, the only people who's resume can compare to him are Shogun, Chuck, Wanderlei, and Rampage
 
I think it's pretty obvious that Jones, Chuck, Shogun, and Wand are all up their in the talk.

I'm not even a Jones fan but I'd go with Jones > Shogun > Wand > Chuck.

Jones's whole run has just been pretty nuts, barring the recent fights, he's hard to discredit.

Shogun's 2005 run and way he did it makes him easy number 2 for me.

Wand is about the same, his reign in Pride was epic.

Chuck is just Chuck, hard to discredit.

I agree
 
I not a fan of calling anyone GOAT when they still aren't even close to the end of their career. Jones has done awesome so far, and is well on his way to being considered one of, if not the best ever but things could change before his career ends.

Not saying it's likely, but for example, what if he goes on a big slide or losing streak? He's going to be fighting a while longer so it definitely could happen in which case his status as "GOAT" will change drastically.
 
What I'm referring to is that Shogun started his run in 2003 when he arrived in Pride and it ended with Overeem II in 2007 (he went on to rupture his ACL during the long layoff everyone had during the UFC-Pride merger; Shogun didn't begin truly proving himself to be the legend he became until he fought Rampage in the opening round of the 05 MW GP I agree with that). Is that not about 4-5 years? I mean correct my math. He was a rising star from 03-04. 2005 came around and he just tore a hole through the best MMA had to offer in his division.

I was responding directly to what you wrote here:

Because the fact of the matter is that for a period of about 4-5 years EVERYONE recognized Shogun as the best LHW on the planet. That can't be forgotten.

You state that EVERYONE recognized Shogun as the best for 4-5 years, which isn't true. He started to become recognized as a top guy after his Rampage win in 2005, but his previous wins before that over unranked Namekawa and Kanehara did nothing for him as far as making him a top LHW. Those wins are the equivalent of Jones beating Gusmao or Jake O'Brien.

Yes, I have seen nearly all of Shogun's PRIDE fights. I'm just responding to your first statement that Shogun holds an advantage over Jones because of longevity.

So they both had 2 years on the "rising star" level and then 2 years or so as the #1 LHW in the world. Shogun's prime did not have any greater longevity than Jones's, in fact it was even shorter than Jones's current reign.

If you want to argue quality of wins, that's a separate matter. I'm just pointing out your initial number of "4-5 years as the undisputed best LHW of PRIDE" is untrue. It was 2 years outside of the top 10 and then less than 2 years at the top.
 
I was responding directly to what you wrote here:



You state that EVERYONE recognized Shogun as the best for 4-5 years, which isn't true. He started to become recognized as a top guy after his Rampage win in 2005, but his previous wins before that over unranked Namekawa and Kanehara did nothing for him as far as making him a top LHW. Those wins are the equivalent of Jones beating Gusmao or Jake O'Brien.

Yes, I have seen nearly all of Shogun's PRIDE fights. I'm just responding to your first statement that Shogun holds an advantage over Jones because of longevity.

So they both had 2 years on the "rising star" level and then 2 years or so as the #1 LHW in the world. Shogun's prime did not have any greater longevity than Jones's, in fact it was even shorter than Jones's current reign.

If you want to argue quality of wins, that's a separate matter. I'm just pointing out your initial number of "4-5 years as the undisputed best LHW of PRIDE" is untrue. It was 2 years outside of the top 10 and then less than 2 years at the top.

Ok that was poor wording on my part and you pointed it out. 4-5 years was Shogun's entire run but you don't get into the meat of it until 05 and onward. That's what I meant to say.


Glad that you're familiar with Shogun's career. So you recognize the dive his physical capabilities have taken since his knees have gone.

He WAS the "undisputed best LHW of Pride" and according to a lot of people of MMA after the GP run and most DEFINITELY by the end of his 4-5 year run.

You're absolutely right about the length of time both spent as rising stars and superstars/enjoyed their prime.


Now here's where things get hairy. How can anyone bring in the terms "top ten" or "unranked" when MMA as a sport has NEVER had official rankings. Just what people make up? Doesn't mean there aren't different classes of fighter but who's making these "top tens" back then? And who's making the now for that matter?

Just to be clear on my stance. JBJ didn't beat anyone close to elite or "top 10" if you're gonna try to go that route until maybe the Ryan Bader fighter. Shogun likewise didn't crack that until prime Rampage.


But again at the end of the day when you clear up all the smoke and semantics it comes down to who's beaten who in their careers and even how they beat them can come into play.

Rankings and even titles in this sport can be shoddy (the latter as a result of the first) at times.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top