Is it time or hate that prevents Jon Jones being the LHW GOAT in some eyes?

[Bargey]

Ken Shamrock is the LHW Goat

Kimo is #2. I have a friend named Kimo.

 

[ssk96]

Well, the facts that he's made a habit of making himself unlikable and arrogant in public doesn't help his case. His remarks discrediting Gus' performance and generally insulting the likes of Hendo and Machida in the past didn't help, not to mention his dirty/classless tactics inside the cage (eyepokes, knee kicks, dumping Machida's unconcsious body, etc.) Also, getting UFC 151 cancelled and coming off as a complete hypocrite (rightfully) for his DUI and bogus faux christianity.

He's basically done far more to be a villain than a hero for MMA fans, even though the UFC has done everything it could to paint him in a positive light as a future face of the company.

There's also the fact his resume, while extremely strong on name value, is a lot less strong on context.

Let's take a look at his "legendary, dominant" run:

1) took the title from Rua, an undersized LHW with no TDD who was coming off a 10 month layoff and recovering from another knee surgery.

2) defended against Rampage, who he again held significant physical advantages over. This in addition to the fact Rampage hadn't had a KO win in almost 3 years, and in his last 4 fights had uninspiring wins over Hamill and Jardine sandwiching a loss to Rashad and an uninspiring win over Machida even Rampage felt he lost. In short: Rampage was well out of his prime long before the Jones fight.

3) defended against Machida, who stepped in on short notice to fill in for Rashad Evans. Lyoto's most recent win was against Couture, with his other fights before that being a controversial loss to Rampage, a KO loss to Shogun, and a controversial win over Shogun. Good win for Jones, even if Machida is a natural middleweight and was a late-notice substitute opponent whereas Jones had a full camp behind him. Machida was still relatively close to his prime, even if undersized and short notice. Probably the second best win on Jones' run as a result.

4) defended against Rashad, who Jones had huge physical advantages over again. There has been lots of talk regarding a possible move to middleweight for Rashad. Rashad also essentially gave up and went into survival mode after round 2, enabling Jones to coast to an easy win.

5) after the UFC 151 debacle, Jones rejects Chael as a late-notice substitute, despite Chael being a middleweight, an easy style matchup, and the fact that Jones had just completed a full training camp. Instead, he gets Vitor, another short-notice middleweight opponent with injuries going into the fight. Jones still almost gets his arm snapped off before finishing Vitor in the 4th.

6) despite the UFC's initial effort to reschedule the Hendo fight for the super bowl weekend card, Team Jones claims he won't be good to go by then due to his "arm injury." Instead, he gets middleweight/easy style matchup Chael, instead of Hendo, who also would have been good to compete in April and would have posed more of a problem than Chael. Jones then proceeds to smash Chael, but not before evading a possible doctor stoppage loss.

7) instead of a Machida rematch (which Lyoto had won two title eliminators to get), Jones picks Gustafsson, feeling that the less-proven Gus would be easily dispatched, and prove to be a showcase for Jones, proving that his dominance was built on allegedly amazing skills, not on simply being bigger than his opponents. Jones is a huge favorite going into the fight; most people accept it as a showcase for Jones. Instead, Alex destroys the script, soundly outboxing and mutilating Jones for 3 full rounds and 4:30 of round 4, all while Jones' supposedly godlike wrestling and ground game prove completely useless against the first opponent his size. Gus even shows himself physically stronger than Jones a couple of times. Based on being the champion and edging the last 5:30 minutes of a 25 minute fight, Jones gets a dubious decision most MMA fans disagree with, while being taken out of the arena on a stretcher.

8) rather than give Gus a rematch (which he deserves, considering, you know, most people with a functioning brain without an obvious dog in the situation feel that Gus won the fight), Jones asks for Teixeira, a much slower, shorter, less rangy opponent; in other words, a much easier style matchup then the disastrous blown cherrypick that was Gus. Despite giving immediate rematches in other controversial decisions (Shogun/Machida and Penn/Edgar I come to mind, with neither Edgar nor Machida looking like they'd been run over by a steamroller after the fight as Jones did.) The UFC gives Jones the Golden Boy his wish, despite Jones himself earlier taking a dump on Teixeira's credibility as a challenger and degrading Gus's performance in their fight.

So here's a good question: given all of the above, should MMA fans regard a man where all but one of his title fights were size mismatches (and three of them against middleweights in Lyoto, Vitor, and Chael, with Rashad being an additional future middleweight) in high esteem?

Bottom line, Jones got a lucky break and narrowly escaped with the belt against the only opponent he's fought he didn't hold every physical advantage over, and has also received extremely favorable matchmaking from the UFC brass based on the context.

Based on name value, Jones is the LHW GOAT. But he's nowhere close to being a P4P talent or an MMA GOAT in the making though, especially when its been vividly demonstrated how heavily he depends on physical advantages for his success, rather than, you know, actual skills. Unlikability has nothing to do with his not being regarded in the way his fans and the UFC would like you to view him (as an MMA GOAT in the making.) He isn't held in that esteem because his dominance is manufactured rather than natural, as Gus emphatically proved last week.

 

[dclikewah]

Plus, if Jones is not the LHW GOAT because of lack of longevity, how the hell can they make a case for Shogun? His best run lasted for one year (2005). Jones has been beating the best LHWs thrown at him since 2011.

I am glad you said this. The biggest thing I think is that he didnt fight in the early to mid 2000's. People, especially on Sherdog just have this weird love affair with that era and Brazilians.

 

[Osnodon]

Time will tell

 

[Grappling Rules]

Jones has a better resume than any other LHW in history.

This. And it's not even close. The ONLY reason why anyone would argue that he is not the LHW GOAT is because they hate him. It is an absolute fact that Jones is the most hated fighter on Sherdog. The funny thing is, I was not much of a Jones fan before I got on this site (due to his personality--he was always fun to watch). But the Jones haters say such crazy things that I have found myself constantly forced to defend him and in the process have gradually become something of a fan. He's still not my favorite fighter (not even top 3), but he is closing in on a spot in my top 5.

 

[dudnaito]

Time I'd think. The legends and luminaries he fought were past their prime by quite a bit or at least that's the perception for a lot of people. Maybe he would've beat them even at their prime, who knows.

 

[Robespierre]

Well, the facts that he's made a habit of making himself unlikable and arrogant in public doesn't help his case. His remarks discrediting Gus' performance and generally insulting the likes of Hendo and Machida in the past didn't help, not to mention his dirty/classless tactics inside the cage (eyepokes, knee kicks, dumping Machida's unconcsious body, etc.) Also, getting UFC 151 cancelled and coming off as a complete hypocrite (rightfully) for his DUI and bogus faux christianity.

He's basically done far more to be a villain than a hero for MMA fans, even though the UFC has done everything it could to paint him in a positive light as a future face of the company.

There's also the fact his resume, while extremely strong on name value, is a lot less strong on context.

Let's take a look at his "legendary, dominant" run:

1) took the title from Rua, an undersized LHW with no TDD who was coming off a 10 month layoff and recovering from another knee surgery.

2) defended against Rampage, who he again held significant physical advantages over. This in addition to the fact Rampage hadn't had a KO win in almost 3 years, and in his last 4 fights had uninspiring wins over Hamill and Jardine sandwiching a loss to Rashad and an uninspiring win over Machida even Rampage felt he lost. In short: Rampage was well out of his prime long before the Jones fight.

3) defended against Machida, who stepped in on short notice to fill in for Rashad Evans. Lyoto's most recent win was against Couture, with his other fights before that being a controversial loss to Rampage, a KO loss to Shogun, and a controversial win over Shogun. Good win for Jones, even if Machida is a natural middleweight and was a late-notice substitute opponent whereas Jones had a full camp behind him. Machida was still relatively close to his prime, even if undersized and short notice. Probably the second best win on Jones' run as a result.

4) defended against Rashad, who Jones had huge physical advantages over again. There has been lots of talk regarding a possible move to middleweight for Rashad. Rashad also essentially gave up and went into survival mode after round 2, enabling Jones to coast to an easy win.

5) after the UFC 151 debacle, Jones rejects Chael as a late-notice substitute, despite Chael being a middleweight, an easy style matchup, and the fact that Jones had just completed a full training camp. Instead, he gets Vitor, another short-notice middleweight opponent with injuries going into the fight. Jones still almost gets his arm snapped off before finishing Vitor in the 4th.

6) despite the UFC's initial effort to reschedule the Hendo fight for the super bowl weekend card, Team Jones claims he won't be good to go by then due to his "arm injury." Instead, he gets middleweight/easy style matchup Chael, instead of Hendo, who also would have been good to compete in April and would have posed more of a problem than Chael. Jones then proceeds to smash Chael, but not before evading a possible doctor stoppage loss.

7) instead of a Machida rematch (which Lyoto had won two title eliminators to get), Jones picks Gustafsson, feeling that the less-proven Gus would be easily dispatched, and prove to be a showcase for Jones, proving that his dominance was built on allegedly amazing skills, not on simply being bigger than his opponents. Jones is a huge favorite going into the fight; most people accept it as a showcase for Jones. Instead, Alex destroys the script, soundly outboxing and mutilating Jones for 3 full rounds and 4:30 of round 4, all while Jones' supposedly godlike wrestling and ground game prove completely useless against the first opponent his size. Gus even shows himself physically stronger than Jones a couple of times. Based on being the champion and edging the last 5:30 minutes of a 25 minute fight, Jones gets a dubious decision most MMA fans disagree with, while being taken out of the arena on a stretcher.

8) rather than give Gus a rematch (which he deserves, considering, you know, most people with a functioning brain without an obvious dog in the situation feel that Gus won the fight), Jones asks for Teixeira, a much slower, shorter, less rangy opponent; in other words, a much easier style matchup then the disastrous blown cherrypick that was Gus. Despite giving immediate rematches in other controversial decisions (Shogun/Machida and Penn/Edgar I come to mind, with neither Edgar nor Machida looking like they'd been run over by a steamroller after the fight as Jones did.) The UFC gives Jones the Golden Boy his wish, despite Jones himself earlier taking a dump on Teixeira's credibility as a challenger and degrading Gus's performance in their fight.

So here's a good question: given all of the above, should MMA fans regard a man where all but one of his title fights were size mismatches (and three of them against middleweights in Lyoto, Vitor, and Chael, with Rashad being an additional future middleweight) in high esteem?

Bottom line, Jones got a lucky break and narrowly escaped with the belt against the only opponent he's fought he didn't hold every physical advantage over, and has also received extremely favorable matchmaking from the UFC brass based on the context.

Based on name value, Jones is the LHW GOAT. But he's nowhere close to being a P4P talent or an MMA GOAT in the making though, especially when its been vividly demonstrated how heavily he depends on physical advantages for his success, rather than, you know, actual skills. Unlikability has nothing to do with his not being regarded in the way his fans and the UFC would like you to view him (as an MMA GOAT in the making.) He isn't held in that esteem because his dominance is manufactured rather than natural, as Gus emphatically proved last week.

Most of your post is bullshit but lets take one point as an example.
Lyoto did not fought jones on short notice. The typical training camp for a fight is 8-12 weeks, Machida had nine weeks to prepare
http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f2/myth-machida-fought-jones-short-notice-2525311/

 

[Robespierre]

We can downplay every single opponent of e.g. gus also. Diabate,huna, Hammill all cans. Shogun was over the hill at that point etc... Of course the thing is not like that in reality

 

[ManofSteel]

Jon Jones is without a doubt the best LHW that has come around so far... he is the most well-rounded champion ever, has defended his belt more often than any other and has a resume that makes veterans with careers twice as long look meagre.

Just because Gus (in my opinion) beat him, doesn't mean he isn't the best LHW of all time. It means that Alex had his number that night. Not sure who would take the rematch.

 

[xelad1]

Obvious GOAT LHW is Overeem. He destroyed LHW so badly that he decided to move up to HW where he now holds the UFC belt with 5 title defenses. You fools.

 

[1neomonkey]

Clearly its hate, there's no doubt Jones is the best LHW of all time. With that being said, Jones is constantly putting his foot in his mouth which makes it difficult to like him.

Personally, I love watching him fight, so I really want to like him, but then you hear him talk and you can't help but think what a douche bag. Its no wonder why you had Greg Jackson stop him after a fight celebration and direct him to "go win some fans."

 

[mihailovich]

I'm a Shogun fan & dislike Jon Jones but he's definitely LHW GOAT.

 

[Thai Otoshi]

You have to be out of your fucking mind if you don't think Bones is the LHW GOAT.

Deal with it, bitches.

 

[Jagan Eye]

You seem to be missing the point.


The point here is that people try to discredit Jones' win over Shogun by saying Shogun was past his prime.

However, Shogun was champion at the time. Jones beat the champion, AKA the guy at the top of the weight class. Prime or not, he was the top dog, and there is no reason people should be trying to take that away from Jones.

It's not that there's any sort of discrediting trying to be had here. You can't make a respectable evaluation in cases like this unless you are equally familiar with the fighters you're talking about. Here's where you get guys that know jack shit about Shogun in his prime and have probably never seen Pride a day in their lives.

After Shogun ruptured his ACL for the first time in 2007 he started to look like a completely different fighter (of course anyone who's familiar with pro sports knows that ACL tears usually do that to an athlete).

Fact of the matter is that yes, Shogun won the title against Lyoto Machida. But that doesn't mean that that was the best Shogun we ever saw. How is that a clear indicator of that? The only way to make a judgement calls such as that one is to be familiar with all of Shogun's fights/career and be able to say "here's where he looked his best" considering who he's fighting.

After THREE ACL RUPTURES across BOTH of his knees he's never looked as explosive, athletic, balanced, and all of his physical tools have deteriorated/dived compared to what they were BEFORE his multiple ACL ruptures.

I mean as long as you're familiar with Shogun's career it's not hard to see that drop-off in physical capabilities at all.

So being a champ and being in your prime are one in the same. Tell that to Couture.

Agreed.

Just to draw a parallel with boxing for a moment...

Mike Tyson gets knocked out by Danny McBride. McBride beat Prime Tyson?

Muhammad Ali gets SMASHED by Larry Holmes and gets beat by Berbick. Did they beat prime Ali?

George Foreman wins the title off of Moorer as an old man (even stringing together some title defenses) but eventually loses it to Shannon Briggs. Did Briggs beat prime George?

 

[BrainLeakage]

It's much too early for GOAT talk about Jones. He hasn't been champion long enough.

 

[Fyreborn]

Jones is the *BEST* LHW of all time, however there's a difference between that and GOAT. GOAT requires more longevity.

For instance, consider the case of Gale Sayers. Very comparable to Shogun. Talent wise and skill wise, absolutely on another level. Yet career shortened, or drastically altered, by major injuries. So how do you rank them compared to guys who didn't have the same peak, but a longer career?

Has Jones accomplished enough in his short career to be considered GOAT? He may very well have, and that's a tribute to Jones.

However, it is not necessarily hate to suggest Jones isn't the LHW GOAT. This notion that anyone who doesn't have Jones as GOAT is a "hater" is simply wrong. People have different things that they emphasize. Some need to see some longevity, ala Wand or Chuck, before declaring Jones GOAT.

The Gus fight also - and possibly unfairly - is coloring opinions against Jones right now. The other GOAT candidates all lost in their primes. So having a close fight with Gus shouldn't exclude Jones from GOAT discussion. But, "what have you done for me lately" and Jones looked pretty bad in his last fight.

 

[Stev3]

If he beats Glover and Gus again he will be, and it wont even be up for debate

beat Gus again? He didn't win the first

 

[Toxxus]

But, "what have you done for me lately" and Jones looked pretty bad in his last fight.

Jones didn't look bad. Gus looked better than ever. It was an epic war and one I'd love to see again. That takes nothing away from Jones though. It's not like there's some undefeated LHW GOAT contender to compare him against.

Also, he just beat the UFC record for most title defenses at LHW. He's also very young and not too far away from the most UFC title defenses ever. Another couple years at his current pace and he'll start knocking down some of Anderson Silvas records.

Had he not had the freaky DQ against Hamill he'd be getting there now.

 

[milliniar]

imo its time. the main issue, and its not his fault at all, is the other greats and many of the top of the division were/are on their way out as he made his climb.

Its the same argument that can be used to discredit the pioneers saying they faced crap competition. They faced the best of the best of their time more often than not but they were not the well rounded guys of today.

Jones is fighting and beating the best there currently is and has every right to be called GOAT LHW

 

[Jagan Eye]

Jones is the *BEST* LHW of all time, however there's a difference between that and GOAT. GOAT requires more longevity.

For instance, consider the case of Gale Sayers. Very comparable to Shogun. Talent wise and skill wise, absolutely on another level. Yet career shortened, or drastically altered, by major injuries. So how do you rank them compared to guys who didn't have the same peak, but a longer career?

Has Jones accomplished enough in his short career to be considered GOAT? He may very well have, and that's a tribute to Jones.

However, it is not necessarily hate to suggest Jones isn't the LHW GOAT. This notion that anyone who doesn't have Jones as GOAT is a "hater" is simply wrong. People have different things that they emphasize. Some need to see some longevity, ala Wand or Chuck, before declaring Jones GOAT.

The Gus fight also - and possibly unfairly - is coloring opinions against Jones right now. The other GOAT candidates all lost in their primes. So having a close fight with Gus shouldn't exclude Jones from GOAT discussion. But, "what have you done for me lately" and Jones looked pretty bad in his last fight.

Well the difference is that Shogun's prime years is just as long as JBJ's entire career has been up to this point (about 5 years). I don't follow football really so I don't really know who Gale Sayers was nor can I understand the comparison.

But for 5 years Shogun tore up the LHW/Pride MW division and beat cream of the crop guys during that run. He tore through the elite for that era. Even past his prime/5 year run Shogun was able to nab big wins in the UFC despite being physically deteriorated. Just going to show that even though you're past your prime it doesn't mean you're not still dangerous.

I'm not trying to argue that Shogun is the GOAT regardless of how I personally feel because objectively you can make arguments for a couple of other guys. But don't try to sell Shogun short. Because the fact of the matter is that for a period of about 4-5 years EVERYONE recognized Shogun as the best LHW on the planet. That can't be forgotten.