Is it time or hate that prevents Jon Jones being the LHW GOAT in some eyes?

Probably the facts. Jones is on his way but doesn't deserve to be called LHW GOAT (you know...the greatest of ALL time?). Not even remotely right now. That doesn't get awarded overnight.

You then must know someone better at 205? No you do not because john jones shit on Shogun and made him tap to strikes. Then he stood with Rampage before easily sub in him. Then. Uh. Oh yea he dropped Machida before choking his ass out.

John
Bones
Jones
Is the best 205 in the history of MMA.
 
this guy nailed it

"Wow, let me see:
From the top of my hand, here are the names that IMO are ahead of Jones (looking at the complete career):

I consider Wandi to be my top LHW. His career up until he fought Cro Cop was something you can't really put a blame on (OK, so he is one of my favorite fighters also, and I know I might be biased and a little blind here ). But IMO there is place for debate in his behalf

But I also respect the heck of Hendo or Shogun and what they did throughout their long careers.

then there's obviously Tito and Chuck.

I don't meant to claim Jon is not above them.
IMO he should be a lock to get there. But I rather discuss after he accomplished more and ruled over a couple of years. After all, we don't know if he retires tomorrow, and never get the longevity to cement his legacy."

Even if I didn't think JBJ was the lhw goat, which i do think, I would have Wandi and Hendo above shogun. Nothing against shogun and I like him, but I think Wand and Hendo have better careers. Liddell and Shogun would be the tight argument. Shogun had his pride days and some ufc time chuck had his ufc title run.


It gets tricky with Hendo because on a p4p all time list I'd probably put him higher than Shogun but you have to take into consideration we're talking about a LHW all time list. Hendo did great things at LHW but didn't do better than Wand or Shogun imo.

Wand had the longer streak, Shogun fought the tougher opponents. That's typically how it's seen.


And just so you can see where I'm coming from with Shogun...

Shogun's notable wins if we're giving him the same leniency as JBJ as it pertains to his record.

-Rampage
-Lil Nog
-Overeem x2
-Arona
-Randleplex
-Nakamura
-Coleman
-Liddell
-Machida x2 according to most
-Griffin

You then must know someone better at 205? No you do not because john jones shit on Shogun and made him tap to strikes. Then he stood with Rampage before easily sub in him. Then. Uh. Oh yea he dropped Machida before choking his ass out.

John
Bones
Jones
Is the best 205 in the history of MMA.


Yeah because Shogun was clearly even remotely close to his prime when he fought Jones (or Machida for that matter).

Once Shogun started to rupture the ACL's in both his knees his prime went out the window. If you can't accept that then you're not familiar with pro sports and how ONE ACL tear is typically a death sentence for a pro athlete. There's only ONE pro athlete who's ever come back from an ACL tear the same athlete as he was before (at least in my lifetime) and his name is Adrian Peterson. All others in any sport have come back deteriorated/diminished.
 
Well, the facts that he's made a habit of making himself unlikable and arrogant in public doesn't help his case. His remarks discrediting Gus' performance and generally insulting the likes of Hendo and Machida in the past didn't help, not to mention his dirty/classless tactics inside the cage (eyepokes, knee kicks, dumping Machida's unconcsious body, etc.) Also, getting UFC 151 cancelled and coming off as a complete hypocrite (rightfully) for his DUI and bogus faux christianity.

He's basically done far more to be a villain than a hero for MMA fans, even though the UFC has done everything it could to paint him in a positive light as a future face of the company.

There's also the fact his resume, while extremely strong on name value, is a lot less strong on context.

Let's take a look at his "legendary, dominant" run:

1) took the title from Rua, an undersized LHW with no TDD who was coming off a 10 month layoff and recovering from another knee surgery.

2) defended against Rampage, who he again held significant physical advantages over. This in addition to the fact Rampage hadn't had a KO win in almost 3 years, and in his last 4 fights had uninspiring wins over Hamill and Jardine sandwiching a loss to Rashad and an uninspiring win over Machida even Rampage felt he lost. In short: Rampage was well out of his prime long before the Jones fight.

3) defended against Machida, who stepped in on short notice to fill in for Rashad Evans. Lyoto's most recent win was against Couture, with his other fights before that being a controversial loss to Rampage, a KO loss to Shogun, and a controversial win over Shogun. Good win for Jones, even if Machida is a natural middleweight and was a late-notice substitute opponent whereas Jones had a full camp behind him. Machida was still relatively close to his prime, even if undersized and short notice. Probably the second best win on Jones' run as a result.

4) defended against Rashad, who Jones had huge physical advantages over again. There has been lots of talk regarding a possible move to middleweight for Rashad. Rashad also essentially gave up and went into survival mode after round 2, enabling Jones to coast to an easy win.

5) after the UFC 151 debacle, Jones rejects Chael as a late-notice substitute, despite Chael being a middleweight, an easy style matchup, and the fact that Jones had just completed a full training camp. Instead, he gets Vitor, another short-notice middleweight opponent with injuries going into the fight. Jones still almost gets his arm snapped off before finishing Vitor in the 4th.

6) despite the UFC's initial effort to reschedule the Hendo fight for the super bowl weekend card, Team Jones claims he won't be good to go by then due to his "arm injury." Instead, he gets middleweight/easy style matchup Chael, instead of Hendo, who also would have been good to compete in April and would have posed more of a problem than Chael. Jones then proceeds to smash Chael, but not before evading a possible doctor stoppage loss.

7) instead of a Machida rematch (which Lyoto had won two title eliminators to get), Jones picks Gustafsson, feeling that the less-proven Gus would be easily dispatched, and prove to be a showcase for Jones, proving that his dominance was built on allegedly amazing skills, not on simply being bigger than his opponents. Jones is a huge favorite going into the fight; most people accept it as a showcase for Jones. Instead, Alex destroys the script, soundly outboxing and mutilating Jones for 3 full rounds and 4:30 of round 4, all while Jones' supposedly godlike wrestling and ground game prove completely useless against the first opponent his size. Gus even shows himself physically stronger than Jones a couple of times. Based on being the champion and edging the last 5:30 minutes of a 25 minute fight, Jones gets a dubious decision most MMA fans disagree with, while being taken out of the arena on a stretcher.

8) rather than give Gus a rematch (which he deserves, considering, you know, most people with a functioning brain without an obvious dog in the situation feel that Gus won the fight), Jones asks for Teixeira, a much slower, shorter, less rangy opponent; in other words, a much easier style matchup then the disastrous blown cherrypick that was Gus. Despite giving immediate rematches in other controversial decisions (Shogun/Machida and Penn/Edgar I come to mind, with neither Edgar nor Machida looking like they'd been run over by a steamroller after the fight as Jones did.) The UFC gives Jones the Golden Boy his wish, despite Jones himself earlier taking a dump on Teixeira's credibility as a challenger and degrading Gus's performance in their fight.

So here's a good question: given all of the above, should MMA fans regard a man where all but one of his title fights were size mismatches (and three of them against middleweights in Lyoto, Vitor, and Chael, with Rashad being an additional future middleweight) in high esteem?

Bottom line, Jones got a lucky break and narrowly escaped with the belt against the only opponent he's fought he didn't hold every physical advantage over, and has also received extremely favorable matchmaking from the UFC brass based on the context.

Based on name value, Jones is the LHW GOAT. But he's nowhere close to being a P4P talent or an MMA GOAT in the making though, especially when its been vividly demonstrated how heavily he depends on physical advantages for his success, rather than, you know, actual skills. Unlikability has nothing to do with his not being regarded in the way his fans and the UFC would like you to view him (as an MMA GOAT in the making.) He isn't held in that esteem because his dominance is manufactured rather than natural, as Gus emphatically proved last week.

talk about giving no credit to the guy who has dominated his division. this is shit.
 
I mean look at this way
JBJ has 19 wins already
Rua has 21

Nearly the same amount of top 20, and 10 wins, jbj has more title defences/championships
rua is 31 and jbj is 26.

even if jbj went .500 on his next 10 fights he'll have more wins and fewer losses than shogun.
 
Well, the facts that he's made a habit of making himself unlikable and arrogant in public doesn't help his case. His remarks discrediting Gus' performance and generally insulting the likes of Hendo and Machida in the past didn't help, not to mention his dirty/classless tactics inside the cage (eyepokes, knee kicks, dumping Machida's unconcsious body, etc.) Also, getting UFC 151 cancelled and coming off as a complete hypocrite (rightfully) for his DUI and bogus faux christianity.

He's basically done far more to be a villain than a hero for MMA fans, even though the UFC has done everything it could to paint him in a positive light as a future face of the company.

There's also the fact his resume, while extremely strong on name value, is a lot less strong on context.

Let's take a look at his "legendary, dominant" run:

1) took the title from Rua, an undersized LHW with no TDD who was coming off a 10 month layoff and recovering from another knee surgery.

2) defended against Rampage, who he again held significant physical advantages over. This in addition to the fact Rampage hadn't had a KO win in almost 3 years, and in his last 4 fights had uninspiring wins over Hamill and Jardine sandwiching a loss to Rashad and an uninspiring win over Machida even Rampage felt he lost. In short: Rampage was well out of his prime long before the Jones fight.

3) defended against Machida, who stepped in on short notice to fill in for Rashad Evans. Lyoto's most recent win was against Couture, with his other fights before that being a controversial loss to Rampage, a KO loss to Shogun, and a controversial win over Shogun. Good win for Jones, even if Machida is a natural middleweight and was a late-notice substitute opponent whereas Jones had a full camp behind him. Machida was still relatively close to his prime, even if undersized and short notice. Probably the second best win on Jones' run as a result.

4) defended against Rashad, who Jones had huge physical advantages over again. There has been lots of talk regarding a possible move to middleweight for Rashad. Rashad also essentially gave up and went into survival mode after round 2, enabling Jones to coast to an easy win.

5) after the UFC 151 debacle, Jones rejects Chael as a late-notice substitute, despite Chael being a middleweight, an easy style matchup, and the fact that Jones had just completed a full training camp. Instead, he gets Vitor, another short-notice middleweight opponent with injuries going into the fight. Jones still almost gets his arm snapped off before finishing Vitor in the 4th.

6) despite the UFC's initial effort to reschedule the Hendo fight for the super bowl weekend card, Team Jones claims he won't be good to go by then due to his "arm injury." Instead, he gets middleweight/easy style matchup Chael, instead of Hendo, who also would have been good to compete in April and would have posed more of a problem than Chael. Jones then proceeds to smash Chael, but not before evading a possible doctor stoppage loss.

7) instead of a Machida rematch (which Lyoto had won two title eliminators to get), Jones picks Gustafsson, feeling that the less-proven Gus would be easily dispatched, and prove to be a showcase for Jones, proving that his dominance was built on allegedly amazing skills, not on simply being bigger than his opponents. Jones is a huge favorite going into the fight; most people accept it as a showcase for Jones. Instead, Alex destroys the script, soundly outboxing and mutilating Jones for 3 full rounds and 4:30 of round 4, all while Jones' supposedly godlike wrestling and ground game prove completely useless against the first opponent his size. Gus even shows himself physically stronger than Jones a couple of times. Based on being the champion and edging the last 5:30 minutes of a 25 minute fight, Jones gets a dubious decision most MMA fans disagree with, while being taken out of the arena on a stretcher.

8) rather than give Gus a rematch (which he deserves, considering, you know, most people with a functioning brain without an obvious dog in the situation feel that Gus won the fight), Jones asks for Teixeira, a much slower, shorter, less rangy opponent; in other words, a much easier style matchup then the disastrous blown cherrypick that was Gus. Despite giving immediate rematches in other controversial decisions (Shogun/Machida and Penn/Edgar I come to mind, with neither Edgar nor Machida looking like they'd been run over by a steamroller after the fight as Jones did.) The UFC gives Jones the Golden Boy his wish, despite Jones himself earlier taking a dump on Teixeira's credibility as a challenger and degrading Gus's performance in their fight.

So here's a good question: given all of the above, should MMA fans regard a man where all but one of his title fights were size mismatches (and three of them against middleweights in Lyoto, Vitor, and Chael, with Rashad being an additional future middleweight) in high esteem?

Bottom line, Jones got a lucky break and narrowly escaped with the belt against the only opponent he's fought he didn't hold every physical advantage over, and has also received extremely favorable matchmaking from the UFC brass based on the context.

Based on name value, Jones is the LHW GOAT. But he's nowhere close to being a P4P talent or an MMA GOAT in the making though, especially when its been vividly demonstrated how heavily he depends on physical advantages for his success, rather than, you know, actual skills. Unlikability has nothing to do with his not being regarded in the way his fans and the UFC would like you to view him (as an MMA GOAT in the making.) He isn't held in that esteem because his dominance is manufactured rather than natural, as Gus emphatically proved last week.

I'm not exactly for calling Jones the LHW GOAT. Again I think that's absurd at this point. That being said this looks just a tad bit biased...

It's fine to point out the shortcomings where they are but you gotta give credit where it's due.
 
talk about giving no credit to the guy who has dominated his division. this is shit.

Shogun was a good win. Machida was a good win.

Everything else? Not so much. Rampage had looked crappy before and after the Jones fight. Rashad lost to Lil Nog (the same guy who got blanketed by Davis and Bader) after Jones, then took an uninspiring SD over a 43 year old Hendo. If that doesn't tell you he's on the downslide, then I don't know what else to tell you.

Vitor and Chael were both MIDDLEWEIGHTS. If you want to count them as dominating the LHW division, fine. You'd just be wrong. Vitor took the fight on short notice with injuries, after Jones had completed a full training camp.

Jones also got a gift against Gus, the only prime opponent his size that he faced on a level playing field.

I dislike GSP and wasn't a huge fan of Anderson, but both of them have assembled much more impressive title reigns than Jones. The lone blemish on GSP post-Serra was ducking Hendricks to give Nick Diaz a shot in March. Anderson essentially cleaned out the division and got an impressive win over a near prime ATG in Hendo in the middle of his run. He also wasn't comically dwarfing his opponents during his run.

Jones has a long way to go before he measures up to GSP, Anderson, Fedor, Hendo, or any true GOAT contender.
 
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I'm not exactly for calling Jones the LHW GOAT. Again I think that's absurd at this point. That being said this looks just a tad bit biased...

It's fine to point out the shortcomings where they are but you gotta give credit where it's due.

I conceded on name value he was the LHW GOAT. He'd also probably beat the greats from past eras on the strength of his tremendous physical advantages.

However, he is NOT a future GOAT contender or a P4P talent at this point in time. The Gus fight should have eliminated those notions.

As I said in my previous post, he has a long way to go before getting into the GOAT conversation with the likes of Anderson, GSP, Fedor, Hendo, etc.
 
If he beats Glover and Gus again he will be, and it wont even be up for debate
 
Jones will never be the GOAT in any capacity. Mark my words. People give shogun too much credit thus giving jones too much credit
 
I'm a Jones hater, but he is probably the LHW GOAT. The only reservation I have with saying it outright is we don't know how he handles a loss yet. If Jones goes 1-4 in his next 5, is he still the LHW GOAT? I think the answer is no. So we need to see what he does from here on out.
 
A little of the first and a lot of the second.
 
Judging by the amount of hate he's getting in this thread, I think you've gotten your answer.
 
I almost always root against jones, but at this point anyone that doesn't acknowledge that he's the LHW GOAT is a braindead.
 
"jones beat shogun when he was past his prime!!!"

*shogun was ufc champ*
 
Well, the facts that he's made a habit of making himself unlikable and arrogant in public doesn't help his case. His remarks discrediting Gus' performance and generally insulting the likes of Hendo and Machida in the past didn't help, not to mention his dirty/classless tactics inside the cage (eyepokes, knee kicks, dumping Machida's unconcsious body, etc.) Also, getting UFC 151 cancelled and coming off as a complete hypocrite (rightfully) for his DUI and bogus faux christianity.

He's basically done far more to be a villain than a hero for MMA fans, even though the UFC has done everything it could to paint him in a positive light as a future face of the company.

There's also the fact his resume, while extremely strong on name value, is a lot less strong on context.

Let's take a look at his "legendary, dominant" run:

1) took the title from Rua, an undersized LHW with no TDD who was coming off a 10 month layoff and recovering from another knee surgery.

2) defended against Rampage, who he again held significant physical advantages over. This in addition to the fact Rampage hadn't had a KO win in almost 3 years, and in his last 4 fights had uninspiring wins over Hamill and Jardine sandwiching a loss to Rashad and an uninspiring win over Machida even Rampage felt he lost. In short: Rampage was well out of his prime long before the Jones fight.

3) defended against Machida, who stepped in on short notice to fill in for Rashad Evans. Lyoto's most recent win was against Couture, with his other fights before that being a controversial loss to Rampage, a KO loss to Shogun, and a controversial win over Shogun. Good win for Jones, even if Machida is a natural middleweight and was a late-notice substitute opponent whereas Jones had a full camp behind him. Machida was still relatively close to his prime, even if undersized and short notice. Probably the second best win on Jones' run as a result.

4) defended against Rashad, who Jones had huge physical advantages over again. There has been lots of talk regarding a possible move to middleweight for Rashad. Rashad also essentially gave up and went into survival mode after round 2, enabling Jones to coast to an easy win.

5) after the UFC 151 debacle, Jones rejects Chael as a late-notice substitute, despite Chael being a middleweight, an easy style matchup, and the fact that Jones had just completed a full training camp. Instead, he gets Vitor, another short-notice middleweight opponent with injuries going into the fight. Jones still almost gets his arm snapped off before finishing Vitor in the 4th.

6) despite the UFC's initial effort to reschedule the Hendo fight for the super bowl weekend card, Team Jones claims he won't be good to go by then due to his "arm injury." Instead, he gets middleweight/easy style matchup Chael, instead of Hendo, who also would have been good to compete in April and would have posed more of a problem than Chael. Jones then proceeds to smash Chael, but not before evading a possible doctor stoppage loss.

7) instead of a Machida rematch (which Lyoto had won two title eliminators to get), Jones picks Gustafsson, feeling that the less-proven Gus would be easily dispatched, and prove to be a showcase for Jones, proving that his dominance was built on allegedly amazing skills, not on simply being bigger than his opponents. Jones is a huge favorite going into the fight; most people accept it as a showcase for Jones. Instead, Alex destroys the script, soundly outboxing and mutilating Jones for 3 full rounds and 4:30 of round 4, all while Jones' supposedly godlike wrestling and ground game prove completely useless against the first opponent his size. Gus even shows himself physically stronger than Jones a couple of times. Based on being the champion and edging the last 5:30 minutes of a 25 minute fight, Jones gets a dubious decision most MMA fans disagree with, while being taken out of the arena on a stretcher.

8) rather than give Gus a rematch (which he deserves, considering, you know, most people with a functioning brain without an obvious dog in the situation feel that Gus won the fight), Jones asks for Teixeira, a much slower, shorter, less rangy opponent; in other words, a much easier style matchup then the disastrous blown cherrypick that was Gus. Despite giving immediate rematches in other controversial decisions (Shogun/Machida and Penn/Edgar I come to mind, with neither Edgar nor Machida looking like they'd been run over by a steamroller after the fight as Jones did.) The UFC gives Jones the Golden Boy his wish, despite Jones himself earlier taking a dump on Teixeira's credibility as a challenger and degrading Gus's performance in their fight.

So here's a good question: given all of the above, should MMA fans regard a man where all but one of his title fights were size mismatches (and three of them against middleweights in Lyoto, Vitor, and Chael, with Rashad being an additional future middleweight) in high esteem?

Bottom line, Jones got a lucky break and narrowly escaped with the belt against the only opponent he's fought he didn't hold every physical advantage over, and has also received extremely favorable matchmaking from the UFC brass based on the context.

Based on name value, Jones is the LHW GOAT. But he's nowhere close to being a P4P talent or an MMA GOAT in the making though, especially when its been vividly demonstrated how heavily he depends on physical advantages for his success, rather than, you know, actual skills. Unlikability has nothing to do with his not being regarded in the way his fans and the UFC would like you to view him (as an MMA GOAT in the making.) He isn't held in that esteem because his dominance is manufactured rather than natural, as Gus emphatically proved last week.

Good god this is a dog shit post. Bravo, this should go down in the Shertard Hall of Fame as one of the (if not the) worst posts ever.
 
Well who is better than jones? Shogun? Could make an arguement for it. Chuck? Sensational in his prime, terrible past it. Same as wandy. Who else?Tito? He held the belt in the ufc when the best fighters were in pride.

Its between shogun and jones. And if jones stays unbeaten for next 3 or so fights, it will be conclusive, Jones is the lhw goat.

Easy to say now but its best left to judge after his career is over
 
Jones needs Ed Soares.
 
I have Jones needing a couple more wins in a row before there isn't any debate. A couple dominating wins. Not close decisions.
 
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