Is it safe to say alot of amateur fight gyms don't have clue about programming, planning + S&C

[MMouse]

That's another reason why I've decided to stop competing.

While a lot of amateur fight gyms are ran by coaches who have great skill and coaching development, most if not all (at least around my area) don't have a clue about periodization and/or strength & conditioning.

Most go by the notion of train as hard as you can, as much as you can and if you eventually stop, you couldn't cut it. Better yet, I remember one coach telling me "there is no such thing as overtraining, it's all mental" or " no more weeks off". Or "you have to run, there's no other alternative. Treadmills don't count" (without explaining the reason behind it)

Surprises me to very least.

 

[NurseKnuckles]

It's not just MMA gyms.

 

[freaky]

Everyone knows treadmill is not the same as real jogging on the track. Just try it yourself. I guarantee your record will be worst on the field than it is on the mill.

As for training, of course you need rest. No such thing as overtraining if you know how. Thais train 2x a day 6 days a week. So it's doable but not for everyone. Some people take short cuts by taking steroids. Other's take legal supplements. Creatine, amino acid, post work out, pre workout supplements etc. Massages and rest. I used to train 2-3x hours a day 5 days a week. I could train like this for weeks at a time. Sometimes I take 2 days off if I really feel it. But after 2-3 days I can go back to the intense training again. So it's doable if you know how to take care of your body. Good diet, nutrient, and rest.

 

[Sano]

It's true. Many coaches in martial arts don't know anything about strength and conditioning, but they know the most important thing. They know how to make you fight well, move well and do well in the sport. As someone who is going to make his living doing S&C for others, and rehabilition, I can honestly say that a lot of it is overrated for finesse sports and striking performance.

That said, you have to be able to listen to your body and overtraining is a very real thing. Physically as well as emotionally. Recovery is #1.

 

[MMouse]

Everyone knows treadmill is not the same as real jogging on the track. Just try it yourself. I guarantee your record will be worst on the field than it is on the mill.

As for training, of course you need rest. No such thing as overtraining if you know how. Thais train 2x a day 6 days a week. So it's doable but not for everyone. Some people take short cuts by taking steroids. Other's take legal supplements. Creatine, amino acid, post work out, pre workout supplements etc. Massages and rest. I used to train 2-3x hours a day 5 days a week. I could train like this for weeks at a time. Sometimes I take 2 days off if I really feel it. But after 2-3 days I can go back to the intense training again. So it's doable if you know how to take care of your body. Good diet, nutrient, and rest.

to that comment in regards to running, it was due too injuries happening at that gym. It was notorious for making ppl with absolute no experience in running, run on pavement 5 days a week for miles on end which ended up having ppl so many injured. Running does help, but it's not the end all or be all for great conditioning. Fighters aren't trying to be good runners to begin with.

However it does have it's place but like anything else, it needs to be implemented right. You just don't throw someone with no running experience 5-10k 5 days a week and expect them to finish under 25-30 minutes to start off.

And that's another thing. Coaches have to realize what works for one, maybe not enough or too much for another. Yet it's the same cookie cutter of training balls to the wall and who can work the hardest

 

[MMouse]

That said, you have to be able to listen to your body and overtraining is a very real thing. Physically as well as emotionally. Recovery is #1.

Sadly,

Most coaches feel they know the athlete's body better than the athlete themselves and if they see they're emotionally not there, it will be seen as being soft.

I've experienced a coach telling us " before you stop because you feel you are injured, I'll decide whether or not you can continue".

 

[MaxMMA]

There's literally hundreds of different opinions and programs on S&C for MMA and it changes all the time. Given the ever evolving landscape of MMA techniques, as a coach I don't have the time to develop an S&C program for my fighters, I give them my input on the subject, but I leave S&C up to them. I use all bodyweight for myself personally and if I had the time I would probably include some squats and deadlifts, but I don't.

S&C is at the very bottom of a long list of things that need to be done to be a competent MMA fighter. When I'm coaching fighters for bouts that are also working full time jobs, I'm sure as hell not going to advise them to skip training sessions with me to go lift weights.

 

[MMouse]

There's literally hundreds of different opinions and programs on S&C for MMA and it changes all the time. Given the ever evolving landscape of MMA techniques, as a coach I don't have the time to develop an S&C program for my fighters, I give them my input on the subject, but I leave S&C up to them. I use all bodyweight for myself personally and if I had the time I would probably include some squats and deadlifts, but I don't.

S&C is at the very bottom of a long list of things that need to be done to be a competent MMA fighter. When I'm coaching fighters for bouts that are also working full time jobs, I'm sure as hell not going to advise them to skip training sessions with me to go lift weights.

Of course but when comes to programing and planning (with their skills) a fighter's schedule to prep for a fight most don't consider other factor's involved in the fighter's life and things like recovery capacity. Most coaches go and use a cookie cutter approach. Balls to the wall, train and hard as you can every day.

Majority of the time, a lot of fighter's are already mentally and physically beat come fight night and a lot of times most end up cutting short due to overuse injuries or end up dropping the whole thing together after being pushed mentally and physically passed the point were they don't even want to even do it anymore.

 

[j123]

Yes.

Despite bringing up sports science, nutritional evidence and whatnaught, coaches here don't buy it and prescribe to the bullshit:

Nice stuff, well [insert top level guy name] does old school stuff and can beat you so you wrong. Then I bring up what about guys like Phalares, Woodley, GSP, etc who clearly lift and do strength work

answer: They're in an unnatural weight class

yeah... but they're winning and well at it at that

Flipping strikers are on a whole another level of ridiculousness sometimes I swear.

The idea of peridoization is lost with these cats. Peridization to them is just an 8 week camp, then pig out, and waste time killing yourself to off the weight you stacked on. That's terrible progress, thats like working hard for 3 months, blowing all your savings on a Eurotrip leaving you with nothing left in your account, then saying YOLO

They don't seem to grasp that the raw talent the top guys have, they'll be champs regardless of training regimen.

Over here its ignoramus territory, at least from what I hear from guys in the states, they're more open to strength work, etc.

An example of the crap is them hearing about plyometrics, but don't actually do a real explosive day. Plyos to them ends up being a conditioning sessions. I say that bulding expl. is like a max effort, if you can do more than 10 reps, you're not working that part. But its falls on deaf ears.

 

[MMouse]

I apologize, I think most are reading the title and soley think Strength and Conditioning. I merely meant Programming and Planning as well as Strength and Conditioning on top of their overall skill training

 

[MMouse]

Yes.

Despite bringing up sports science, nutritional evidence and whatnaught, coaches here don't buy it and prescribe to the bullshit:

Nice stuff, well [insert top level guy name] does old school stuff and can beat you so you wrong. Then I bring up what about guys like Phalares, Woodley, GSP, etc who clearly lift and do strength work

answer: They're in an unnatural weight class

yeah... but they're winning and well at it at that

Flipping strikers are on a whole another level of ridiculousness sometimes I swear.

The idea of peridoization is lost with these cats. Peridization to them is just an 8 week camp, then pig out, and waste time killing yourself to off the weight you stacked on. That's terrible progress, thats like working hard for 3 months, blowing all your savings on a Eurotrip leaving you with nothing left in your account, then saying YOLO

They don't seem to grasp that the raw talent the top guys have, they'll be champs regardless of training regimen.

I'll be lucky if I hear a gym around here have "camps". Most gyms expect their athletes to be in peak shape all year around. LOL

One of my former coaches expected this from me, so I knew ok if I were going to train near my maximum week in and week out, personally what worked for me was 3weeks hard 1 week easy, every 8-12 weeks I would take 5-10 days off to give my self a break (mentally and physically), but every time I had an easy week or 5-10 days off, I was frowned upon even though I explained my reasoning. Eventually I did it his way of just going balls out every time and what happens, I eventually felt like I didn't even want anything to do with training and dropped the whole thing altogether. And it took me a good 6 months to get the itch again.

At the same time like what you've said, I have had training partners who kill themselves prepping for a fight and prior to that they were barely doing shit.

 

[j123]

I'll be lucky if I hear a gym around her "camps". Most gyms expect their athletes to be in peak shape all year around. LOL

One of my former coaches expected this from me, so I knew ok if I were going to train near my maximum week in and week out, personally what worked for me was 3weeks hard 1 week easy, every 8-12 weeks I would take 5-10 days off to give my self a break (mentally and physically), but every time I had an easy week or 5-10 days off, I was frowned upon even though I explained my reasoning. Eventually I did it his way of just going balls out every time and what happens, I eventually felt like I didn't even want anything to do with training and dropped the whole thing altogether. And it took me a good 6 months to get the itch again.

At the same time like what you've said, I have had training partners who kill themselves prepping for a fight and prior to that they were barely doing shit.

Its shitty, because at the end they won't let you fight despite putting all effort in and showing reasoning behind it.

The idea you could do more when you can't and it makes you seem "lazy". You know what the S&C regimen was when I first started competing? Run 8-10km everyday. I didn't do that, the others who did all ended up with knee issues afterwards. I was seen as the lazy one though.

One issue here is that combat sports in terms of MT + MMA is still very new, so most of the coaches here look it at similar to a pro standpoint. When in fact ammy is where you build exp. find out your ideal weight class, then once you're pretty comfortable and athletic there, maybe you can squeeze in to make a lighter class. Here it's, you're below 6', therefore you're 145, no matter how strong you get, you will always be 145. If you're 5'5, 160lbs with 8% bodyfat, athletic well....you'll have to lose muscle, because to them you're a flyweight. Oh, btw you're not allowed to use water manipulation either, thats dangerous so we don't want you doing that.... yeah but all the opponent's are doing that, esp. if its a wrestler from Iowa. Well too bad.

I've thought about going indy actually. If I'm not getting anything by the end of the year I'm doing that or bouncing. Being led on with the intention of never letting me compete is a shit move. Esp with all the time and effort I've put in with the gym as well.

I feel if we had more of a wrestling culture and less striking oriented gyms here, things would be better. Maybe in time it'll get better.

 

[JonJonesLines]

I am a wrestling coach and I can't stand to see the training schedules of other HS teams as well as local MMA gyms (boxing gym my son attends is great and I do some of the S&C for fighters).

One local MMA gym has their guys who work full time come in every morning, either run miles on end or hit mitts, and then in the evening spar hard 3x a week and the other 2 days work on bjj. They currently are losing money out the ass because nobody stays for more than 2 months.

One thing with my HS wrestlers is we have gone to 3x a week practice and lifting in the offseason and 4x a week in season. Our practices are intense in season and not so intense in the offseason. I wish I could push them harder but they are human beings who need time to go sleep with girls, go down to the river and fish, and just be kids.

My nephew and 3 others treat it differently. They do those 2 extra sessions a week on top of those with my older brother at his house. They do it because they want to and I encourage that. If they had full time jobs and more responsibilities? No way in hell could they do it.

 

[MaxMMA]

Yes.

Despite bringing up sports science, nutritional evidence and whatnaught, coaches here don't buy it and prescribe to the bullshit:

Nice stuff, well [insert top level guy name] does old school stuff and can beat you so you wrong. Then I bring up what about guys like Phalares, Woodley, GSP, etc who clearly lift and do strength work

answer: They're in an unnatural weight class

yeah... but they're winning and well at it at that

Flipping strikers are on a whole another level of ridiculousness sometimes I swear.

The idea of peridoization is lost with these cats. Peridization to them is just an 8 week camp, then pig out, and waste time killing yourself to off the weight you stacked on. That's terrible progress, thats like working hard for 3 months, blowing all your savings on a Eurotrip leaving you with nothing left in your account, then saying YOLO

They don't seem to grasp that the raw talent the top guys have, they'll be champs regardless of training regimen.

Over here its ignoramus territory, at least from what I hear from guys in the states, they're more open to strength work, etc.

An example of the crap is them hearing about plyometrics, but don't actually do a real explosive day. Plyos to them ends up being a conditioning sessions. I say that bulding expl. is like a max effort, if you can do more than 10 reps, you're not working that part. But its falls on deaf ears.

I know you dudes are going to flame the shit out of me but here goes....

It's a common theme on this forum for lifting/fitness pro's to try to place their training standards on martial arts training but, the two aren't the same. Aside from hard sparring most martial arts training programs are extremely low impact on the body.

Almost all martial arts techniques(striking and grappling) are comprised of total body movements. There are very few techniques drilled in martial arts were the workload is placed on isolated muscles or muscle groups the way it is in lifting.

I'm not going to have a martial arts training session that completely obliterates my legs, or arms, or back and is going to require me to lay off another session for at least a few days. Shadow boxing, low impact. Can work everyday. Pad work low impact. Can work every day. Bag work, semi low impact. Can work everyday. Tech sparring, low impact. Can work everyday. Wrestling/jiujitsu drilling, low impact. Can work everyday. Wrestling/jiujitsu sparring, semi low impact. Can work every day.

Add onto the fact that all these activities are almost always conducted on thick padded mats, and you have a workout routine that is generally very easy going on the body.

IMO, to many MMA fighters prioritize S&C separate from the training they are already conducting. GSP himself said that he lifts weights to look good, and in turn feel good about himself, not because it actually aids in his performance as a fighter.

 

[Phlog]

My old kickboxing coach had nothing to say on gym time, or periodisation. It's just brutal 'warm up' after brutal warm up.

One warmup we did 1800 bodyweight exercises..

One thing it taught me though was that no one trains nearly as hard as they can. I got to be the fittest of my life and won every fight so it wasn't wrong, just not optimal.

It meant all our work was done tired but we never gassed in fights. Better for the heavyweights imo as a got heavyweight is a rare thing on the amateur circuit.

 

[j123]

I know you dudes are going to flame the shit out of me but here goes....

It's a common theme on this forum for lifting/fitness pro's to try to place their training standards on martial arts training but, the two aren't the same. Aside from hard sparring most martial arts training programs are extremely low impact on the body.

Almost all martial arts techniques(striking and grappling) are comprised of total body movements. There are very few techniques drilled in martial arts were the workload is placed on isolated muscles or muscle groups the way it is in lifting.

I'm not going to have a martial arts training session that completely obliterates my legs, or arms, or back and is going to require me to lay off another session for at least a few days. Shadow boxing, low impact. Can work everyday. Pad work low impact. Can work every day. Bag work, semi low impact. Can work everyday. Tech sparring, low impact. Can work everyday. Wrestling/jiujitsu drilling, low impact. Can work everyday. Wrestling/jiujitsu sparring, semi low impact. Can work every day.

Add onto the fact that all these activities are almost always conducted on thick padded mats, and you have a workout routine that is generally very easy going on the body.

IMO, to many MMA fighters prioritize S&C separate from the training they are already conducting. GSP himself said that he lifts weights to look good, and in turn feel good about himself, not because it actually aids in his performance as a fighter.

I don't think most here actually prioritizes strength work, S&C, etc. over technique and skillwork. Your body adjusts with a new stimulus, and maybe in a week or 2 will be able to handle heavy lifting and training. Of course heavy lifting for us does not mean a full Russian PL type routine, thats way too taxing for most.

You also have to see the types of people posting here, its likely not alot of posters are top level UFC fighters, they're hobbyists and low to intermediate level competitors. Posters who ask questions about S&C work are usually people who like MMA/BJJ/Striking, got into it, started competing, but never had an athletic base growing up; So at that stage of development, a basic program goes a long way, and benefits much more than endless circuits and running.

At the big picture, ignore it, there is no negatives to it:

• Your metabolism increases significantly (you can eat more food)
• You get stronger
• Address muscle imbalances (a huge issue with combat sport practitioners)
• Usually if planned right your explosive strength improves as well

Thats not to mention as well, if both of you have similar a skill level in a contest in something grinding like the clinch, and your opposition is weaker, they'll exert much more energy trying to match or overcoming you.

The problem is it takes time to show. New guy can show up to BJJ x5 a week and in a month he'll be able to escape mount under a heavier guy. For the strength to reap its reward, its gonna be at least 4-12 months before significant usage appears. So really its a long term investment.

My problem is coaches not accepting that people have different body types/needs and not everyone is meant to be a thin lanky striker; Telling people to lose muscle to murder themselves to be weak, lethargic, and flat is not what should be happening. I've experienced it myself, seen teammates and others (from sister gyms) get mauled by fighters who have done good strength work, and despite them being shorter, they dominated. Quite a of those guys had finishes as well. Height is an important attribute, but its not the be all end all of things.

Also it depends on your stage as a fighter, at the novice level things are very aggressive and athletically fueled, little to no technique is used due to lack of exp. nerves, etc. Being athletic and strong at this stage counts for alot, once a fighter reaches the late-intermediate to advanced (10+ fights), is when technique and tactics really start to shine. I'm mostly referring to striking in this.

GSP: Thats to say the strength work didn't help him. Benching 315 is a huge strength milestone for alot people and he's reaping the benefits of it.
Its like winning the lottery, then saying you did it because you enjoy it which is fine. But after winning the lottery, you buy 3 super cars, and a 4000sq ft home, and say it did not help with that is misleading.

 

[dsdoubled]

Its not just local gyms either

 

[Locke91]

My coach doesn't know shit about S&C lol. Great national level fighter but extremely limited in all other aspect.
To his defence tho', what he did worked for him..

I actually struggle with this myself. I get told all the time that I kick and punch really hard ; I do attribute this to my years in powerlifting. But as I go lower and lower in weight and I spend more time running then doing the big three I feel myself shrinking.
Not sure what route to take..

I always imagine that having a good benchpress is better than having a pussy benchpress.. If you have the time and energy.

 

[Sano]

I don't think most here actually prioritizes strength work, S&C, etc. over technique and skillwork. Your body adjusts with a new stimulus, and maybe in a week or 2 will be able to handle heavy lifting and training. Of course heavy lifting for us does not mean a full Russian PL type routine, thats way too taxing for most.

You also have to see the types of people posting here, its likely not alot of posters are top level UFC fighters, they're hobbyists and low to intermediate level competitors. Posters who ask questions about S&C work are usually people who like MMA/BJJ/Striking, got into it, started competing, but never had an athletic base growing up; So at that stage of development, a basic program goes a long way, and benefits much more than endless circuits and running.

At the big picture, ignore it, there is no negatives to it:

• Your metabolism increases significantly (you can eat more food)
• You get stronger
• Address muscle imbalances (a huge issue with combat sport practitioners)
• Usually if planned right your explosive strength improves as well

Thats not to mention as well, if both of you have similar a skill level in a contest in something grinding like the clinch, and your opposition is weaker, they'll exert much more energy trying to match or overcoming you.

The problem is it takes time to show. New guy can show up to BJJ x5 a week and in a month he'll be able to escape mount under a heavier guy. For the strength to reap its reward, its gonna be at least 4-12 months before significant usage appears. So really its a long term investment.

My problem is coaches not accepting that people have different body types/needs and not everyone is meant to be a thin lanky striker; Telling people to lose muscle to murder themselves to be weak, lethargic, and flat is not what should be happening. I've experienced it myself, seen teammates and others (from sister gyms) get mauled by fighters who have done good strength work, and despite them being shorter, they dominated. Quite a of those guys had finishes as well. Height is an important attribute, but its not the be all end all of things.

Also it depends on your stage as a fighter, at the novice level things are very aggressive and athletically fueled, little to no technique is used due to lack of exp. nerves, etc. Being athletic and strong at this stage counts for alot, once a fighter reaches the late-intermediate to advanced (10+ fights), is when technique and tactics really start to shine. I'm mostly referring to striking in this.

GSP: Thats to say the strength work didn't help him. Benching 315 is a huge strength milestone for alot people and he's reaping the benefits of it.
Its like winning the lottery, then saying you did it because you enjoy it which is fine. But after winning the lottery, you buy 3 super cars, and a 4000sq ft home, and say it did not help with that is misleading.

I don't know where it comes from that GSP puts up big numbers. He's always been an advocate for doing less S&C and more the sport. T&F and gymnastics > olylifting and weightlifting > bodybuilding is what he says.

Check this out:


About a minute after the timestamp I made he mentions the bench specificly, saying that he's not strong in the weightroom and benches two plates or two½ plates. I take it he means for reps, but still.

 

[j123]

I don't know where it comes from that GSP puts up big numbers. He's always been an advocate for doing less S&C and more the sport. T&F and gymnastics > olylifting and weightlifting > bodybuilding is what he says.

Check this out:


About a minute after the timestamp I made he mentions the bench specificly, saying that he's not strong in the weightroom and benches two plates or two½ plates. I take it he means for reps, but still.

There was a vid years back of him benching 315. I think it was around 2011?