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is it fair to say tyson is the greatest boxer thats ever lived?

Discussion in 'Boxing Discussion' started by roses n guns**, Oct 6, 2010.

  1. totalstranga Ike Turner Backhand Belt

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    well it's kind of a big deal since Tyson's age was one of the points of Mike's greatness that TS was trying to sell. Plus I thought everyone knew Tyson's age when he won the WBC title. Maybe it's just me since I was around back in '86 and watching boxing
     
  2. dg43088 Guest

    Tyson had a hell of a career for sure. Youngest HW champion, unifiying the title's quickly after, destroying Spinks in 91 seconds. All impressive but his entire career desn't stack up to Ali, Louis, Ray Robinson to name a few guys who put together careers miles and miles ahead of Tyson.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 11, 2010
  3. Kimura77 Orange Belt

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    they most likley were saying that out of respect,Tyson has been through alot and more people like him now that hes humble than before(myself included)
    btw can you name your source of the trainers all-time lists because im "Knee-Deep" in this sport and never heard this before (Miguel Diaz is punch drunk if he thinks Tyson is #2 all-time).............

    Yea and 13th isnt the Top-Ten........maybe i shouldnt have used the word "near" but im hoping you get my point......

    still wana see that source pal,...oh and the IBRO got Pernell Whitaker as #17 Welterweight which is highly questionable since he only had 15 WW fights and they dont even put Felix Trinidad in the rankings(Hes second in Title defenses next to Henry Armstrong with 15)
    makes you kind of wonder who were part of the 40+ nember board....
     
  4. Kimura77 Orange Belt

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    thats why there "highlights"...
     
  5. longhairfghters** Green Belt

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  6. roses n guns** Banned Banned

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    as probably my last post in this thread i would make these simple points, hes a protege of cus who if you watch old videos of mike he was punching the heavy bag under the supervision of rooney and hit it faster and harder then foreman. hard to believe? watch the video. saw footage of tyson sparring with someone at the age of 16 hitting so hard its scary, dominated everyone except buster up until he went to prison and would have beat everyone had he not went to prison. those are my opinions and facts and im sticking to it.
     
  7. KingOfTheMods I always do that sometimes

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    Well good lad for acknowledging his greatness, and yes in my opinion Leonard>Robinson. Not much in it mind.
     
  8. Mike Mesey Amateur Fighter

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    Knee deep in it huh?
     
  9. njackets Blue Belt

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    What a ridiculous thread! How did it make 7 pages?
     
  10. Concepcion** Banned Banned

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    you'd be shitting bricks if you had tyson staring at u from the other corner of the ring, mate
     
  11. Corleone187 ㄥ8ƖǝuoǝlɹoƆ

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    probably because it's so ridiculous.

    just think about it if someone said something pretty obvious like Fedor is the GOAT it would probably die after 1 reply because it's so blatantly obvious.

    Tyson I would say would be lucky if he could even crack the top 15-20. Look how many greats there are at heavyweight, now look at how many weight divisions there are in boxing.

    Tyson maybe in the top 50 if that
     
  12. Sharkey Who finishes 3rd?

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    The article was penned by Lisa Scott a few years where she interviewed some trainers and asked for their opinion on the greatest heavyweights. It was originally put on sweetscience.com I do believe, but has been copied in a post here;

    Top Trainers pick the top Heavyweights of All time! - Boxing Forum

    And why are you trying to speak for them and say "they were most likely doing it out of respect" for Tyson? Obviously they do have some respect for what Tyson accomplished to have included him. But to include him only because they feel like being nice to a guy that's become "humble" or whatever else? Come on dude. They ranked him because they found reason to rank him. Bottom line, and each of them (Gil Clancy too...also includes Tyson as one of his ten best) contradict your claim that no trainer would consider him a top ten heavyweight.

    Also, while 13th overall in a poll isn't a top ten it was conducted using the opinions of a variety of people/boxing historians. You think when a fighter finishes that highly in a poll that he hasn't garnered some top ten votes from "a historian" (which you also said none would do) or a few amongst all those voting? It's a given he has, my friend.

    You may have a different opinion on Tyson and that's fine. I'm not sure I'd put him in there myself if I could be arsed to care enough about compiling those things. But there are people who have the opinion Tyson was a top ten heavyweight of all-time. People who you said wouldn't think of him that way.

    As far as Whitaker or Trinidad's ranking is concerned, if you have a different opinion than what showed up in that poll then that's fine. Neither of them are all-time top ten type welterweights to me despite Trinidad having a bunch of defenses of some alphabet trinket/prop against some good and not so good fighters. Perhaps the majority of people asked in that poll gave more weight to Whitaker outboxing a pair of top 5 pound-for-pound types in Chavez and McGirt than what Trinidad did as a whole (gaining a controversial decision vs the only p4p fighter he faced at 147). Ask them, though.
     
  13. Kimura77 Orange Belt

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    sweet read,but i was disappointed with the lack of respect Mcgirt gave Marciano,if you think that highly of Walcott and Charles then fine but dont diss the Rock.....


    Yea im sorry but i didnt realize that some trainers can be "delusional" as well......

    Freddie Roach had James Toney in the Top Ten all-time(Im the biggest Toney fan and i might be biased to put him in the Top Twenty......

    Miguel Diaz had Jerry Quarry and Ron Lyle in the Top 5.....

    Emanual Stuart said "Mike was 220 but he was fighting guys 240-250".....
    is he talking about Tubbs at 238?
    or Ruddock who was also 238?
    he must be referring to Bruno who weighed 248....
    either way he only fought a handful of fighters that size the rest of his opponents were in the 220+ range and Mike was 5'10 and thick as hell i wouldnt consider him a "small" Heavyweight except by maybe todays standard.....

    I think your missing the bigger picture "my friend",that the reason they came together was to come to a consensus and although it seems that they dont favor the modern generation....(Liston over Lennox!?) even the Board didnt have him in the Top-Ten so i guess your trying to tell me i was wrong about the way i said Tyson wasnt a Top Ten Heavyweight although the Board consensus"s was that he wasnt!?....ok....i guess your right?...


    So your saying im wrong about being right and now you would agree with me if you yourself cared enough to think about it!?.....then why the hell did you type this lengthy post?..
    Wow you go out of your way to point out the already apparent fact that when "historians" come together and form a consensus on the Top-Ten Heavyweights,most agree that he doesnt belong in the Top-Ten,exactly what i said i believe,although i probably worded it too strongly......
    And when i said i didnt feel the ratings were accurate you go as far as too agree with me,but then you go on a completely biased rant about Felix Trinidad based solely on your opinion,which kinda makes you a hypocrite......and wait!?...WTF when was f%ckin Buddy Mcgirt a P4P top 5.....and did you just put him in the same league as Chavez!?

    You obviously know your fair share of the sweet science,but to point out the fact that i used the phrase "wont find a historian" when i could have said "hard to find a historian" or whatever other way i could have appeased you isnt relavent.
    The fact of what i was saying still is widely considered as the truth.....he isnt a Top-Ten Heavyweight(didnt you agree with this!?)
     
  14. DavidHungus Banned Banned

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    Please name 49 HWs better than Tyson.

    I know you're trolling or stupid but try.
     
  15. Sharkey Who finishes 3rd?

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    Kimura, this is what I was contending earlier. If you meant something else with these words, then so be it. If you want to discredit the trainers that did in fact rank Tyson as being "delusional" or whatever else, then so be it too.

    The fact is there are trainers who hold that opinion of Tyson whether you agree with them or not. It's also a fact that you can find "a historian" that ranks Tyson amongst their top ten heavyweights of all-time. In fact you can find a number of them even if a consensus ranking from a group of 40 of them has Tyson just missing the cut...One of the more respected boxing historians of recent times has been Herb Goldman once included Tyson as the 4th greatest heavyweight of all-time. He's written Ring Record Books, co-founded the IBRO, penned many wrods on boxing and it's history. More than qualified to have an opinion, I'd say. "Delusional" as well, because you don't agree with him? What about Steve Farhood, who himself ranked Tyson as a top ten heavyweight (9th)? Delusional too, even if he held a position in charge of multiple boxing mags, penned many, many different articles in his years following boxing, and generally gets credit for having fair knowledge as a "boxing historian"? A lot of internet types that discuss boxing also hold Monte Cox's opinion highly and Tyson cracked the top ten on his list when he sent his in to the IBRO poll;

    Cox's Corner All Time Heavyweight Ratings

    Again, whether you agree with them or not, there are boxing historians (as well as trainers) out there that will include Tyson as one of the greatest heavyweights in history. Or is everybody "delusional" because they have a different opinion than you?

    And no, I didn't agree with you by any means with my exact words being "I'm not sure I'd put him in there myself". "I'm not sure" means exactly that...I'm not sure. He may be in if I could be arsed to compile a ranking. Or, he may not be in. If anything, "I'm not sure" signifies someone who is worthy of consideration whether they make it or not.

    And I'm sorry, I missed the part where I supposedly went on a completely biased rant against Trinidad. All I said was that I wouldn't consider him a top ten welterweight of all-time, which just happens to be what is probably the deepest division in a historical sense out of all of them. Plenty of great welterweights have fought throughout the division's history and there's quite a few that have to be left out no matter whose doing a top ten list of them. My referring to his belt as a "trinket" or "prop" is what I feel about the ABC groups of the boxing world. Not Trinidad. Doesn't matter who it is, if that's all you're holding then I'm not calling you a "world champion" unless you have proven that you deserved the acclaim by defeating the last person deserving of that honour. Beating a Maurice Blocker type doesn't do it for me, sorry. And his decision against Oscar was controversial by the very definition of the word "controversial". People have been disputing the decision given in that fight to this very day.

    Yes, Buddy McGirt was considered a top 5 pound-for-pound fighter at one time. Just before and entering the Whitaker fight to be exact. Ring Magazine ranked him 5th in their year end rankings for 1992 (Whitaker McGirt happened in March of '93);

    The Ring Magazine's Annual Ratings: Pound For Pound--1990s - Boxrec Boxing Encyclopaedia

    KO Magazine also conducted their yearly poll at the end of 1992 where they'd ask broadcasters, writers, fighters, trainers, etc., who they thought were the pound-for-pound best fighters in the sport were, and McGirt came home with the 4th highest total after the tallies were added up;

    1. Julio Cesar Chavez - 136
    2. Terry Norris - 91
    3. Pernell Whitaker - 85
    4. Buddy McGirt - 60
    5. Riddick Bowe - 45
    6. Orlando Canizales - 36
    7. Azumah Nelson - 34
    8. Lennox Lewis - 24
    9. Julian Jackson - 18
    10. Roy Jones - 15 (tie)
    10. Mike McCallum - 15 (tie)

    Taken from Ring Magazine's May 2003 issue, which lists the yearly top ten and totals going back to 1980.

    The May 1993 issue also featured a poll in it where the readers were asked their opinion on various things, with one of the questions asked being who they thought was the best fighter in boxing at the time...McGirt recieved 7% of the votes to finish in 3rd place. Behind Chavez at 59% and Whitaker at 16%.

    Buddy McGirt was thought of very highly entering the Whitaker fight and you yourself can look into a few more things if you like by using the archives for Google News. The fight with Whitaker was considered to be a battle between two of the best pound-for-pound fighters in the sport.

    McGirt and Chavez were only put in the same sentence by me with both being top 5 p4p fighters at the time Whitaker fought them. McGirt was considered 4th or 5th according to the two leading boxing magazines. Chavez was in the top spot obviously. Comparision only ends there with Chavez having the better overall career in my and most peoples eyes. But, at his peak, Buddy McGirt was a very good fighter with a whole lot of talent.
     
  16. Sharkey Who finishes 3rd?

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    One more thing, Kimura, in reference to Trinidad's trinket and the person this thread is about...I don't consider Tyson the "youngest heavyweight champion" of all-time either. With Michael Spinks having defeated Larry Holmes, he deserved the position as "world champion" at the top of the division in my eyes by defeating a man who also proven himself deserving to sit in that spot. Tyson defeating the likes of Berbick, Smith, and Tucker* is doing nothing but prop collecting in my eyes. Not becoming a "world champion" with that term being entirely singular in it's whole definition.

    * Tucker an example of boxing politics at its best with Spinks having negotiated and signed a deal with HBO that allowed him one fight out of the tournament. i.e. the Cooney fight, which the Spinks camp was already talking about before the tournament took shape. Hence the deal included into the HBO contract. Things can chagnge when the Don Kings of the world have a hold of these sanctioning bodies' ears, though.

    To me, Tyson became world heavyweight champion when he defeated Spinks. Not before. Makes him about a month older than was Floyd Patterson at the time he beat Moore. Afterall it was Patterson's record that Tyson supposedly "beat" wasn't it? Or was it Luther McCarty's "record" that he "beat" with McCarty having won some peoples version of a "world heavyweight championship" while being a couple of months shy of his 21st birthday?
     
  17. De7 White Belt

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    Sugar ray robinson was the GOAT. Robinson had over 170 wins and he was good everywhere in boxing. Now mike tyson was up there too, The man had one of the best head movements in boxing and as a heavyweight fought like a lightweight, He was exciting and finished all of his fights quick. Now kevin Rooney said if Cus Damato didn't die Mike Tyson could of made it up to 100-0. Tyson was a beast but he lost focus and had so many problems and going into jail changed him. Now tyson doesn't have the motivation anymore and he's a religionist islamic man now, But honestly I think Tyson will go down as one of they greatest boxers of all time, But not THEY Greatest of all Time.
     
  18. Corleone187 ㄥ8ƖǝuoǝlɹoƆ

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    I said 50 boxers you moron! :icon_chee Tyson would be lucky just to be up there in the top 50.

    In the HW he wouldn't even cut top 10 like most here have indicated and 99% of the boxing world agree to.

    Name 1 great fighter Tyson ever beat? Any great fighter Tyson ever faced he got smoked.

    The most notable win on Tyson's record is Larry Holmes....and a very VERY aging Larry Homes at that, but a good win for Tyson nonetheless cause he still had some skills even though he was ancient.

    But the rest of Tyson's wins is a list of whose who of nobodies like the Atlantic City Express who got KO'd by Tyson's "air"

    Did Tyson have good skills? yes. Good chin? yes? Did he ever beat anyone worthy no...but he beat a lot of mediocre guys in impressive fashion
     
  19. cmdsooner Purple Belt

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    my god. tyson's one of my favorites, and is in my sig. but if you held a gun to my head, i don't know if i could call him the best boxer of all time.
     
  20. OLD RIPPER** White Belt

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    I agree!!!!
     

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