Crime Is it fair to say Liberals/Democrats are more tolerant/softer on crime?

[Rod1]

I actually think it'd be fair to say the left helped get him elected with those "34 felony convictions". lol Please keep doing what you clowns do.

Which just proves the point about who is really the "soft on crime" side.

 

[HereticBD]

Which just proves the point about who is really the "soft on crime" side.

Just because Democrats want to drum up some bogus felony charges to hurt a political rival in an election, doesn't mean people have to automatically buy into it.

What don't you get about those charges being some obvious political bullshit? Do you really think nobody noticed how they played fast and loose with turning a misdemeanor into a felony? What was the main charge again, after all was said and done? "Election interference" was it? LOL. They were laughable charges. Even the jury was given some special instructions not to think too hard about it. It was such an obvious sham. You're just mad that it didn't work.

 

[cooks1]

Is the death penalty truly abolished if LWOP still exists?

I just find it interesting when left leaning folks(or anybody, really) thinks that life in a cage isn't just a death sentence with extra steps. Do you believe everybody, no matter what, deserves a chance at rehabilitation and freedom, or no? If your answer is "no", then what's the point of keeping people alive in a cage until they croak? Other than slave labor of course.

Well........ right now............. the point of keeping people in a cage until they croak is because it costs 3-4 times less than putting them to death. Just the taxpayer funded portion of the cost of a capital punishment appeals process is enough to keep someone in prison for over 100 years. The average time LWOP inmates spend in prison before death is 39 years. And that's before you get into the logistics and all the other crap.

Do you know the average length of time between a death penalty sentence and an actual execution? 233 months. 19.4 YEARS. So even after we have put them to death after 19 years, we have still funded more than half of the cost of keeping them in jail until they croak. Hilarious!!

I'm going to invert the question and put it to you. What's the point of executing someone when it's 3-4 times more expensive than just keeping them in jail until they croak? It's not more of a deterrent. Seems to me this would be a good place for Elon Musk and DOGE to poke around.

Come back and see me when executions take a fraction of the time and cost a fraction of the amount of life sentences and we can talk again. I'll be on board. But be careful. There are a lot of places on the globe that have that system already. But you probably would not want to live in most of them.

 

[HereticBD]

Well........ right now............. the point of keeping people in a cage until they croak is because it costs 3-4 times less than putting them to death.

That's not the point. The death penalty isn't being abolished over cost. It's being abolished in places because it's been deemed inhumane.

I'm going to invert the question and put it to you. What's the point of executing someone when it's 3-4 times more expensive than just keeping them in jail until they croak? It's not more of a deterrent. Seems to me this would be a good place for Elon Musk and DOGE to poke around.

Come back and see me when executions take a fraction of the time and cost a fraction of the amount of life sentences and we can talk again. I'll be on board. But be careful. There are a lot of places on the globe that have that system already. But you probably would not want to live in most of them.

You're talking out of both sides of your mouth. In one breath, you say you want a very cheap and efficient way to execute them, but then trail off saying that countries that do that aren't countries where you'd want to live, insinuating that it's a bad idea reserved for less civilized societies.

I somehow doubt you'd be all for the death penalty, if we just started hanging people a week after their conviction, so why are you pretending to be? Just be honest about why you oppose it. I think you're dancing around it, because you can't square that LWOP is a more humane way of killing someone.

 

[IanEdwards]

I've always agreed with leftists on white collar crime going underpunished. So I don't think they were always "soft" on crime, more so that the crime topic got hijacked in the 2010s and injected with race.

Bro the subject of race was very heavily commingled with that of crime a loooong time before the 2010s

 

[HeffDoesWant]

liberals are more likely to forgive crimes against a person, conservatives are more likely to forgive crimes against humanity. fair enough?

This rings true to me .

 

[cooks1]

That's not the point. The death penalty isn't being abolished over cost. It's being abolished in places because it's been deemed inhumane.

You're talking out of both sides of your mouth. In one breath, you say you want a very cheap and efficient way to execute them, but then trail off saying that countries that do that aren't countries where you'd want to live, insinuating that it's a bad idea reserved for less civilized societies.

I somehow doubt you'd be all for the death penalty, if we just started hanging people a week after their conviction, so why are you pretending to be? Just be honest about why you oppose it. I think you're dancing around it, because you can't square that LWOP is a more humane way of killing someone.

I'm not taking out of both sides of my mouth at all. I plainly stated my reasons. I am OK with executions. And great job evading my question by the way.

In January 1989, a few days before Ted Bundy's execution, I was the lucky kid that got to put "Free Fries When Bundy Fries" on the sign outside the restaurant I worked at. It was a fucking party in Florida when he was executed.

BUT I don't want to pay 3 times more to execute someone than to lock them up and throw away the key. Where is the utility in that? I think we should use the DP less, but when we use it- it should be fast and cheap. And I was not suggesting at all that the DP was a bad idea reserved for less civilized societies. Those are YOUR words. My observation was simply that highly civilized societies struggle to do it cost effectively. But less civilized societies that can do it cost effectively seem to struggle with fairness and impartiality.

And LWOP is MORE humane??? Are you fucking joking? LWOP prisoners have it way worse than death row inmates. They are crammed into squalid cells with other lifers and don't get access to many of the 'prison amenities' that inmates who may get out some day have. Death Row inmates have one bunk Hiltons. Your basic college dorm room from the 1980's. If I have to do a murder, I'm definitely going to a DP state and I'm definitely killing in such a way that gets me on death row. I'm 56. Odds are I'll be dead before I get to the needle. More death row inmates die of natural causes while on death row than are actually executed LOL.

 

[Possum Jenkins]

Is the death penalty truly abolished if LWOP still exists?

I just find it interesting when left leaning folks(or anybody, really) thinks that life in a cage isn't just a death sentence with extra steps. Do you believe everybody, no matter what, deserves a chance at rehabilitation and freedom, or no? If your answer is "no", then what's the point of keeping people alive in a cage until they croak? Other than slave labor of course.

I think it is.

There is a clear difference between the state actively killing you and the state holding you confined until you die from natural causes. I do think everyone deserves a chance at rehabilitation. If it's determined that they're far too damaged, unrepentant, ill, whatever, then the state holding you in a facility so that you're not a danger to the general population is justified.

 

[Possum Jenkins]

The government's primary goal is to protect its citizens. If Sweden and Germany can't rehabilitate criminals with all the money and resources they pour into it, then we sure as shit can't. Meanwhile, El Salvador is getting unbelievable results with a very small percentage of resources compared to that of ours and Europe's. I know 2 people personally who are planning on retiring in El Salvador after decades of me hearing from them horror stories of what they've witnessed over there.

Not sure why El Salvador is being compared to Sweden, Germany and the US. Their realities and societies are wildly different. El Salvador is a poor, tiny country that dealt with a decades'-long civil war, which resulted in an astronomical murder and crime rate. Western countries have none of those qualities.

But in general, yeah, brutality and violence on the part of the state usually works. It's just a matter of how much citizens are willing to put up with. Countries like Singapore and Saudi Arabia will fine you for spitting gum on the street or amputate your hand for theft. The result is that these societies are very safe and free of petty crime.

 

[HereticBD]

I'm not taking out of both sides of my mouth at all. I plainly stated my reasons. I am OK with executions. And great job evading my question by the way.

There's no avoiding anything. I'm totally for expediting the process to make it more efficient. Doesn't mean I have to be against it as is.

Your premise was simply false, though, since you were alluding to it being abolished due to cost. That's not the reason, and you know it. You wanted to throw a curveball, but instead you balked. It's abolished in some places because it's been deemed inhumane and a product of barbarism. That's where my position comes in, where I think it's amusing how many are against the death penalty due to it being inhumane, but are totally cool with LWOP, which is apparently not inhumane to those same people, even though it achieves the same result. A complete removal from society.

I'll take you at your word that you're against it for monetary reasons, but I still found your comment about "countries you wouldn't want to live in" executing people in short order, a little curious for someone who says they would support a more swift approach.

 

[cooks1]

There's no avoiding anything. I'm totally for expediting the process to make it more efficient. Doesn't mean I have to be against it as is.

Your premise was simply false, though, since you were alluding to it being abolished due to cost. That's not the reason, and you know it. You wanted to throw a curveball, but instead you balked. It's abolished in some places because it's been deemed inhumane and a product of barbarism. That's where my position comes in, where I think it's amusing how many are against the death penalty due to it being inhumane, but are totally cool with LWOP, which is apparently not inhumane to those same people, even though it achieves the same result. A complete removal from society.

I'll take you at your word that you're against it for monetary reasons, but I still found your comment about "countries you wouldn't want to live in" executing people in short order, a little curious for someone who says they would support a more swift approach.

If I have a choice of putting someone to death for $5 million, or incarcerating them until the end of their natural life for $1.5m, I will always choose the latter. The US has debt of $36 TRILLION for fuck sakes. When you owe $36 trillion, you don't have money to spare on the spectacle of more expensive executions. If we can't immediately figure out a way to fairly put people to death at a cost that is equal to or less than keeping them in prison until they die, we should abolish the DP for that reason alone. There is no utility in it. Plus, we make martyrs and celebrities out of these folks on death row. They are getting interviewed on Netflix documentary shows for fuck sakes. They should be in there with the LWOP folk doing real, hard, bleak time.

You are trying to impose some humanity argument on me that I never made. My argument has always been completely about the cost. I'm not particularly concerned with the accommodation of our LWOP inmates. I would prefer they not be abused, tortured, or starved. But other than that, I'm not really bothered.

 

[Makani]

Drug/Property crimes for sure, they often bend over backwards to excuse them if certain conditions are met. On the flip-side, Republicans will let Trump do a Tesla show on the White House lawn or bilk people for millions with memecoins and it's all hunky-dorey.

 

[F1980]

If I have a choice of putting someone to death for $5 million, or incarcerating them until the end of their natural life for $1.5m, I will always choose the latter. The US has debt of $36 TRILLION for fuck sakes. When you owe $36 trillion, you don't have money to spare on the spectacle of more expensive executions. If we can't immediately figure out a way to fairly put people to death at a cost that is equal to or less than keeping them in prison until they die, we should abolish the DP for that reason alone. There is no utility in it. Plus, we make martyrs and celebrities out of these folks on death row. They are getting interviewed on Netflix documentary shows for fuck sakes. They should be in there with the LWOP folk doing real, hard, bleak time.

You are trying to impose some humanity argument on me that I never made. My argument has always been completely about the cost. I'm not particularly concerned with the accommodation of our LWOP inmates. I would prefer they not be abused, tortured, or starved. But other than that, I'm not really bothered.

The better conversation would be why in the world does it cost more to kill someone than spend $60k a year to keep them alive in a prison?

How much do you think it costs in China for them to kill a prisoner?

How much do you think it costs Japan to kill each prisoner?

 

[nhbbear]

Often times they seem to have more empathy with the criminal than the victim even if the victim had to lose their life.

Depends on the suspect. They don’t have much love for the fairer skinned criminals

 

[nhbbear]

Neither side is soft on crime. They are just willing to compromise on different aspects.

Conservatives are far more forgiving of white collar crime, crimes committed by Conservative leadership, and gun related (looser standards for self defense and illegal ownership/carry) for example.

Liberals are very forgiving of illegal immigration, crimes committed by marginalized groups, and crimes where the victims are wealthy/in power for example.

There is nuance to both sides but neither side will acknowledge it. All crime should be appropriately punished.

The issue, as I see it, is who decides what is appropriate punishment?

 

[nhbbear]

I'd want to tap dance on his chest in golf spikes while I poured the steel down his throat.

But that's irrelevant.

The gov't and the law aren't there to fulfill our revenge fantasies. They're there to keep society functioning with as least harm as possible. Abolishing the death penalty (this doesn't mean abolishing punishment or even incarceration) serves this end.

I am sticking a curling iron up their ass and then turning it on. Other fun things to follow.

I have been teaching aspects of restorative justice and it makes me sick to hear some of the high points of such a concept. Sorry, an apology and an explanation don’t make the victim whole for violent crimes.

 

[chardog]

The better conversation would be why in the world does it cost more to kill someone than spend $60k a year to keep them alive in a prison?

How much do you think it costs in China for them to kill a prisoner?

How much do you think it costs Japan to kill each prisoner?

lawyers gotta eat

 

[Rod1]

Just because Democrats want to drum up some bogus felony charges to hurt a political rival in an election, doesn't mean people have to automatically buy into it.

What don't you get about those charges being some obvious political bullshit? Do you really think nobody noticed how they played fast and loose with turning a misdemeanor into a felony? What was the main charge again, after all was said and done? "Election interference" was it? LOL. They were laughable charges. Even the jury was given some special instructions not to think too hard about it. It was such an obvious sham. You're just mad that it didn't wor

DONALD TRUMP DINDU NUFFIN, HE A GOOD BOY.

Right wingers are only against crime, when said crime is done by minorities, just look at any threat involving the FBI or the ATF going against a white person and the usual suspects suddenly turn into BLM style bleeding hearts.

Trying to overturn an election isn't a serious crime, the stupid shit one read online.

 

[HereticBD]

DONALD TRUMP DINDU NUFFIN, HE A GOOD BOY.

Right wingers are only against crime, when said crime is done by minorities, just look at any threat involving the FBI or the ATF going against a white person and the usual suspects suddenly turn into BLM style bleeding hearts.

Trying to overturn an election isn't a serious crime, the stupid shit one read online.

There' a severe lack of "those 34 felony counts were totally legit, and here's why" in that post.

Nice tantrum, though.

 

[nhbbear]

Well........ right now............. the point of keeping people in a cage until they croak is because it costs 3-4 times less than putting them to death. Just the taxpayer funded portion of the cost of a capital punishment appeals process is enough to keep someone in prison for over 100 years. The average time LWOP inmates spend in prison before death is 39 years. And that's before you get into the logistics and all the other crap.

Do you know the average length of time between a death penalty sentence and an actual execution? 233 months. 19.4 YEARS. So even after we have put them to death after 19 years, we have still funded more than half of the cost of keeping them in jail until they croak. Hilarious!!

I'm going to invert the question and put it to you. What's the point of executing someone when it's 3-4 times more expensive than just keeping them in jail until they croak? It's not more of a deterrent. Seems to me this would be a good place for Elon Musk and DOGE to poke around.

Come back and see me when executions take a fraction of the time and cost a fraction of the amount of life sentences and we can talk again. I'll be on board. But be careful. There are a lot of places on the globe that have that system already. But you probably would not want to live in most of them.

Yeah, but executions free up prison space. They should be quick and decisive.