is horn a prime example of what dedication/mat time/focus can do

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by devante, Aug 22, 2005.

  1. devante

    devante Silver Belt

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    To my knowledge jeremy has had very little tech grappling knowledge, esp i comparison to the other mma fighters in the div he has fought in; my question is this. Has he established that if you pay attention to detail, spar alot and really focus on your tech gameplan, that you can be a top flight grappler.
    I know he has never been in abu dhabi, but from what i have heard he is better than alot of the ufc types that have been in (i.e. van arsedale..tito...trigg..etc)
    Now i am aware jeremey has some pretty good sparring partners, an at some point has had some direction in regards to tech; nonetheless his tech/style/etc is built mostly on his hard work..attention to detail and desire to learn mma/grappling.
    I also think his lack of prior exp helped him learned, as he said on the preview; i did not know how to wrestle, so i had to fight off my back, i had to learn to position my body, had to learn to control dist, sweep and set up, chain together subs. An as a result of working out w/wrestliers he was able to learn how to takedown..out position..reverse or control people w/lesser wrestling backgrounds.
    So is jeremy proof u can attain some kind of level of eff just by paying attention..working hard and sparring fighting alot; i can relate to jeremy in the instance that how he learned, is how i learned. An no i am not as good or even good; but i have been able to hold my own w/people of a better pedigree and tech base than myself, based solely off watching alot of mma/grappling and just grappling/sparring alot.
    Horn has been able to sub chuck...eugene jackson...the crow...chael sonnen...and hang on the ground w/frank shamrock..etc...so he has a history..of being able to do alot of damage w/his gfround skills..wht u guys think.
    I don't know wht rank he is but i hear he does not care about belt levels..what do u guys who have belts tourney exp..etc think of my theory and of his skillset...
     
  2. Gsoares2***

    Gsoares2*** Banned Banned

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    Surving and beating someone is two completely different things. He might be a decent grappler but he is not a world class grappler. If so he would enter adcc or something along those lines and win it. Why not it would be an extra pay day and a status quo.

    Holding someone down is not a admirable skill. Its something people naturally do when they panic and are left with nothing else...

    Everyone would like to believe there is a an easier and better way to do things... but there simply isnt. Training hard, practicing technique. Becomming fluent with your motions... train train train.. is the only way to get better and be great.

    He must be pretty good to survive at the UFC level, but that does not put him with the greats that dominate the pure grappling game. I dont think having no prior experience helped him.. Experience is exactly what makes any person even have a game to begin with.. Experience is what makes the fighter.

    He is not a pure grappler... and because of his age i dont think he ever could become one...
    To compete and win at the ADCC as a pure grappler would be out of Horns reach in my opinion.....

    Vale Tudo is his game.... Not grappling....
     
  3. devante

    devante Silver Belt

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    wll i understand ur point and i feel that you are correct in your assessment; my point is this why is he able to survive or outgrapple opp w/a better pedigree than himself. Yeah it is vale tudo; but if he was not a certain level he would not have won half of the fights he won or been as competitive as he has been against mid carders or top level guys.
    Not saying anyone can do wht he did and become a top grappler; but i want to know how people would explain his success, how is he out positioning, tapping, defending, transitioning against guys who have actual belt ranks..and better overall tech background than jeremy. Why is it he is finishing people that other so called top sub guys can't finish.
    I am not arguing your point or saying u are wrong, i agree w/u; but why is it soo many people are so impressed by his grappling, not just from what they have seen. They are impressed after they get off the mat w/him; we already establish he fights too often to really train..and he is not w/a high level bjj/sub guy, an he is mostly self taught, so what is his secret as to why he can do what he does and why he is given his respect.
    Y is he even considered decent when he has no accredited training and no top level grappling partners to work w/in regards to world class subs/etc...
     
  4. Gsoares2***

    Gsoares2*** Banned Banned

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    He does have accredited training though... Miletich system
    Which is a new fighting style that blends it all... It is the MMA style that was doing so well in the UFC.

    I really dont have an answer for you though for the other questions.
    He is mixing top wrestling skills with bjj submissions.. Its a different style that works well for him.

    Some styles just work well against others..
     
  5. Ybot

    Ybot Purple Belt

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    I've heard he's really good pure grappling, but don't know.

    In the end, though, the hard work is what pays off. You can have great grappling instuctors and not learn a thing, cause you didn't work at it, or you could become a great grappler training here and there, but constantly training.

    I'm from Fresno originally, and there is no black belt instructor in all of Fresno. I moved to Sacramento and have been training with a world class Black belt for over 2 years now. When I go back to train with the guys I use to train with I see progress from them pretty much equal to my own. They are a good bunch of guys with open minds about grappling and a love for their training, that takes you a long ways IMHO.
     
  6. oasisatmidnight

    oasisatmidnight Banned Banned

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    i thought he was one of H Gracies first black belts
     
  7. sakufan

    sakufan Purple Belt

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    Horn has fought in ADCC and he is banned for life from that tournament. He fought Matt Hughes in the absolute division and they did a work. I think they're both banned for life.
     
  8. Sherdog_Mutt

    Sherdog_Mutt Purple Belt

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    Really? I'd be interested to see this match.
     
  9. infamous mattyd

    infamous mattyd Brown Belt

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    wow, thats crazy...any source for that, I'd love to read more about it.
     
  10. flyingknee16

    flyingknee16 Brown Belt

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    I think they tried to get an award for quickest submission or something like that, since there's a wad of cash involved in those kind of special prizes.
     
  11. aaron_mag

    aaron_mag Purple Belt

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    Wow. That is surprising!!!

    I had thought you were going to say you destroy them now.

    In a way that is good to hear. There is hope for us dabblers yet!!

    Thanks for the info...
     
  12. devante

    devante Silver Belt

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    like i said i am not implying that you can somehow replace quality instruction, all things being equal i would say doing it the normal way is better; the point i am making is horn did it through fighting, observation and minimal tech instruction, which is no diff than someone doing it through observation, sparring and minimal tech.
    So i am basically asking if horn has shown us that if you work hard enough, spar enough, observe enough and really pay attention enough in regards to grappling; that you can in fact become competent, if not very competitive in this artform. Not saying you can or will be the best cus at the highest level, those guys have the work ethic focus and the preparation; but u can at least compete w/those types of fighters.
    Horn has held his own and at some points out grappled people who have a very obvious grappling pedigree, or people who have a wrestling pedigree or some kind of documented background that makes them eff all round/off or def.
    Examples: He tapped liddel, yeah it was early; but liddel fought guys w/sub skills and none of them could finish...an none of them could keep him down,even then. Horn did it.
    He out positioned/blocked/countered/controlled frank shamrock, yeah it was early; but this was right b4 frank started destroying everyone (zinoviev, lober, jackson) he alredy stopped inoue and was a kop. An trained underneath ken
    Just two examples but when u think he did this early on, when he had little to no real exp, just his own hard work and personal teachings; an even now he has beaten griffin, chael sonnen and david loisea. Guys who are considered top 15-25 in their div, two of which by submission; not to mention he held his own w/couture and was not gnp to oblivion and was able to go the dist w/babalu ( who has shown excellent wrestling and sub skills). I know it is not enough to survive; but if it isn't y can't more guys do it... i dunno.
    Once again maybe i just like jeremy cus he learned like i did and it makes me feel better about my lack of actual instruction and formal training; to be able to be like look maybe i won't be at this level, but i am not some clueless wonder just cus i don't have a school or a team or instrctor to work w/.
    thanks for the responses
     
  13. SPSUDISPATCH

    SPSUDISPATCH Purple Belt

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    I would have to have a source for that since:

    1. They didn't fight in the Absolute Division, but in the 88-98 Kg Quarterfinals

    2. Hughes fought Jeff Monson to a decision in the semis.
     
  14. scorcho

    scorcho Brown Belt

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    I don't see two competative guys like Jeremy and Hughes doing that, but who knows. More info anyone (source)?
     
  15. ClubberLange

    ClubberLange Green Belt

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    Can't remember where I read it, but I remember something about them seting up so they could split the award for fastest sub or some shit.
    And no, I don't have a source
     

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