Is gi Jiujitsu the most complicated combat sport?

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by biscuitsbrah, Feb 15, 2016.

  1. biscuitsbrah

    biscuitsbrah Black Belt

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    or is it no gi with all the leg locks and crazy scrambles.

    How in the world is stuff still being invented at such a fast pace. Been training bjj for 3 years very consistently and I'm yet to understand nearly a tenth of the various positions.

    Reminds me of Dominick Cruz and bjj scout, where I think I understand what's going on but really I don't at all. With high level 'fancy' bjj sometimes I don't even know what I'm watching.

    Anyone feel me on this? I have to admit I'm more of an MMA guy so I don't really do my due diligence in watching bjj or much technique and breakdown videos.

    Do any purple-black belts feel like they know exactly what they are watching the entire time for almost any given high level bjj match? I guess my understanding is just low because i simply don't watch bjj but just train it.

    I feel like the leg lock positioning game in no gi is where it really gets confusing
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2016
  2. Gambledub

    Gambledub Brown Belt

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    As someone who has done analysis, i'll let you in on a secret. Unless you train with someone competing it is unlikely anyone knows exactly what/why they're doing. So much of bjj is based on momentum and pressure which is nearly impossible to determine just by watching. I would say it's like an iceberg with observable technique at the top, with the bulk of the what, why, when, how etc being the bottom of the iceberg. There are a ton of factors that can make this up, but for the most part it is purely estimated intelligent guess work and speculation.

    I think the beauty of striking arts is how the initial simplicity evolves into a bunch of complex rules and situations, where as the beauty of grappling arts is the initial complexity that refines down into a smaller number of core concepts and principles.
     
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  3. Edison Carasio

    Edison Carasio Excellence of execution belt Platinum Member

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    Gambledub nailed it. Nothing to see here folks.
     
  4. DrJitsu

    DrJitsu Orange Belt

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    This all day. I'll just say this is what can make jiu jitsu really frustrating to train at times. And it what makes it so much fun. There is so much "invisible jiu jitsu" that seems to be about pressure and momentum like gambledub said. I'm still trying to figure this out. And I think what he said about concepts vs particular scenario based rules is right on. I'm really working on focusing on particular concepts while rolling versus hitting a specific technique which may or may not fit the situation at hand with that given opponent. I don't know if this is right or wrong.
     
  5. jack36767

    jack36767 Brown Belt

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    I didn't learn this till college but focusing on "positions" and concepts will take you further than just learning moves. That's why Ryan Hall's instructional are so amazing. If you can learn to just go from good position to good position rather than learning 'moves', your game will become better overnight, doesn't matter if it's bjj or wrestling
     
  6. jack36767

    jack36767 Brown Belt

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    Quoted because you beat me to it
     
  7. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

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    I think you have to start with actual moves, the problem is when people get stuck on the mechanics of a particular move and never think about why the move works or what you're ultimately trying to accomplish. It's hard for coaches because white belts aren't going to understand the concepts so there's no use teaching them, in fact it can be counterproductive because it leads to them focusing on the stuff that's beyond their reach (conceptual understanding of a kinetic/experiential skill set). At the same time, as people get better you do need to revisit moves with them and start talking about why they work and getting them to focus more on the underlying mechanical principles because that's what allows you to refine your technique for your own physical/psychological makeup. Sadly, most coaches don't do this. People either figure out the underlying principles themselves or they just keep doing stuff mechanically with little understanding of the content.
     
  8. jack36767

    jack36767 Brown Belt

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    It's a little bit of a balance, but I'm going to use a wrestling analogy because that's what I've actually taught to groups of kids who are going to compete and you need them executing even if it isn't perfect. We show our kids a double leg and single, but we emphasize that good position in wrestling (almost always) when executing a move, especially shots is
    1. hips in
    2. head up
    3. back straight
    4. Elbows tight

    So they know to finish attacks they just have to stay in good position and move their feet, defending attacks, take opponent out of good positions. So instead of them knowing what's technically half a dozen moves, they know a couple of positions

    but I do take your point
     
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  9. DrJitsu

    DrJitsu Orange Belt

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    This really resonates with me. I'd add to this, "or people quit." I think part of the reason blue belts quit is because they realize that this mechanical reiteration of moves that may have worked at white just does not work against more skilled opponents. I think we all know people who show up and "keep doing stuff mechanically" and they just don't evolve their game like others who go through the somewhat painful process of discovering underlying concepts and principles. Then you've got the quite literal pain of trying to apply those concepts and principles to the many facets of your game. I'm often torn between the random techniques we are doing in class and the overall concept that I'm working on. Some of the best classes I've attended have an explicit concept that is stated upfront and then uses individual moves to illustrate ways to leverage that concept. I think this is effective because it gets me thinking of all the other ways I can incorporate that concept into my game.
     
  10. Bluesbreaker

    Bluesbreaker Black Belt

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    Not necessarily the most complicated, but it must be the slowest moving. That allows for more thinking time than other combat sports.
     
  11. EndlessCritic

    EndlessCritic Gold Belt

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    If by complicated you mean unwatchable, then yes.

    The entire concept of pulling guard is nonsensical. There should be no distinction between a guard pull and a takedown.

    It is baffling that someone can pull guard, spend 4 mins on his back, get a sweep to guard, and win.
     
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  12. Thrawn33

    Thrawn33 JUST BLEED Belt

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    Complicated for grappling arts:

    Judo tachiwaza.

    I've done (and love) all the big 3 (judo/bjj/wrestling)

    Nothing is more frustrating than Judo standing up, and Judo is my most sucsessful art, but out of them all I've been left shaking my head more with that one.
     
  13. lechien

    lechien Gold Belt

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    Bjj is not complicated.
    Traditionally it is taught wrong.
    I am refferring about the so random techniques and 2 variations that is still use in so many classes.
    It should be taught by positions and actions instead of a curriculum of random techniques.
    Well at least for the first year or so.
     
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  14. Ivaylo Ivanov

    Ivaylo Ivanov FICW President

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    I would add, before a coach opens an academy, he should be certified by government sport agency, in order to ensure safety and proper physical education of the students.
    In my experience, the vast majority of the bjj coaches just copy and paste class structure, passed to them from a favela guy, who is not very familiar with science behind sports and hence, the absence of properly structured practices including warm ups, rephlex drills, technical drills, educational part, sparring part, cool down, stretch and etc.
    The sparrings are another issue- there is absolutely no need to do 100% live sparrings at every session. Instead, situational sparrings with different intensity would be a lot more beneficial and safe for the practitioners.
    Free sparrings once a week would be more than enough.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2016
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  15. kenpeters8

    kenpeters8 Purple Belt

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    Old school BJJ is better than the new school BJJ hipsters. Just saying.
     
  16. lechien

    lechien Gold Belt

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    Sparring 1/3 of the class is what made bjj what it is.
    Situational rolling is a good tool to emphasise the topic of the day.
    But scratching rolling for every class to once a week is a recipy for disaster.
     
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  17. Ivaylo Ivanov

    Ivaylo Ivanov FICW President

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    Japanese judo classes consist on 20 min warm up and an hour of hard sparring.
    Japan is the only country in the world, reaching toll of 120 child deaths due to judo training.

    I didnt say stop rolling.
    I said roll with goals- passguard roll, escapes from positions or half guard to sweep roll...
    Once a week free sparring.
    Dont you think that every student will improve a lot faster if they are forced to drill from those positions?
     
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  18. BJ@LW&WW

    [email protected]&WW Gold Belt

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    mma. easily tops any purely grappling art.
     
  19. lechien

    lechien Gold Belt

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    Like i said, situational rolling is very good.
    It is better than no rolling.
    Judo kids death: i read about it and the reason was the instructors at the school were inqualified instructors.
    But who knows?
    Not that sport.
     
  20. Ivaylo Ivanov

    Ivaylo Ivanov FICW President

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    The majority of the cases was due to overtraining (my point for proper class structure), followed by unqualified instructors (my point for government certification), followed by injuries and strangles (my point about situational sparring, where the focus is on drills).

    Why situational sparring?
    Because practitioners can still go 100%, but if you have a curriculum of requirements everyone in your gym should be able to cover, you can enforce the students to train the components exactly through this method.
    Otherwise, it doesnt matter how many times you will go through certain techniques, the new guys will just go through the class, not practice the drill lively and once you go to sparring part, they will still go to berimbolo, pulling guard and whatever cool move Keenan or Galvao have pulled off in the last competition.
    Which means that both, your efforts and their time are wasted.

    Once they have covered all the bases, all know how to throw,control & pin, escape positions, pass guard, submit from certain positions, they have developed their base for the next level and can practice all fancy moves they want.
    Coaching purpose accomplished.
     
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