Not really. Frazier didn't belong in the ring with Foreman. Just that simple. It was like a champion beating a journey man. It was that much of a difference.
Is Foreman a better boxer than Ali since he destroyed fighters Ali had wars with (and lost to)
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Not really. Frazier didn't belong in the ring with Foreman. Just that simple. It was like a champion beating a journey man. It was that much of a difference.
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So basically, you're basing your whole thread on a woulda coulda shoula that is only a guess by you.
No the point you are making has nothign to do with your thread title for reasons said earlier.
Ali has beaten foreman, and has beaten fighters that have beaten foreman. Foreman has not beaten anybody that looks like they can beat Ali either, and his wins are people Ali beat.
Conclusion: Ali is a better fighter than Foreman.
I don't even think Foreman would have won the rematch either if he fought smarter. Mainly basing this on Lyle who knocked down a prime foreman during a slug fest and studied that rope'a'dope strategy to avoid it. Plan was working decently though, until Ali got pissed and wrecked him with flurries.
Found the thread I made btw, it's on an old banned account I had: https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/would-ali-have-lost-a-rematch-against-foreman.2721469/
No. It is a fact that Foreman annihilated fighters who gave Ali hell multiple times.
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Another fact is Ali’s win over Foreman.
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And Ali still knocked him out? You guessing how the rematch is gonna go is purely opinion based and not fact. You using random facts to support it don't matter at all. Shoulda woulda coulda
Garry cooney annihilated and outboxed jimmy Young in 4 round, JImmy young made Foreman struggle a to teh distance AND ACTUALLY BEAT HIM. According to your logic Garry Cooney should easily beat Foreman. If you still argue back, you must be trolling.
Gary Cooney should also beat Ali according to your logic since Ali struggled against Young.
CONCLUSION TO THIS THREAD: GARY COONEY IS THE HW GOAT cause he beats Young, Foreman, and Ali. Nobody can top that resume.
Depends on how good he was when he destroyed him.
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No idea wtf that means, Jimmy Young was never that good imo. before beating foreman, Jimmy had already lost to Ali, Shavers(By ko), Neuman, and a bunch of other bums.
Again though, if your logic was legit, Shavers would have beaten Ali cause he KO'ed jimmy so easily and fast. but in Reality Ali with Parkinson still beat Shavers.
Aren't you seeing a pattern yet? This is getting sad...
Foreman was never the same after the Ali loss, which is why I don't think the Young loss meant shit and also why I agree that he probably wouldn't have won a rematch against Ali. But if he went into the first match with a more realistic approach rather than being the first man to knock out muhammed ali in 3 rounds, he could have very well proven the boxing math correct.
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foreman was mentally shot by ali, absolutely destroyed, i don't even know if he could have put up a fight against any version of ali, even though ali wasn't much good after Manila. Ali was still smart and he was still tough, you don't beat an earnie shavers if you have absolutely nothing left. The shavers fight really was his last hurrah and it was impressive from a certain point of view but he lost 3 of his next four fights, the spinks rematch showed that he could wring a win out of his ancient body by torturing himself in training and he did his very best to imitate the young ali and did dance for most of the fight, but spinks didn't belong in there really. Facts are, for whatever reason, ali could rarely hurt anyone after manila, he scored kayoes only over two guys who weren't really qualified to be challengers, coopeman and dunn. Outside of that, he looked horrible for the most part.
A lot of people thought Ali lost the Shavers fight
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that's right, and the jimmy young fights, ali was certainly shot, he never lost his chin and his ring smarts, and .....that heart, he actually was close to kayoing shavers in the 15, actually one of his more exciting/forgotten fights. Imagine growing up watching a popular champion putting on these kinds of performances and thinking that was the real Ali, and imagine how stunned I was a few years later when I was wandering around in a dept. store and came upon a laserdisk playing Ali's mid 60's fights, i was mesmerized and it changed my life. Mid 30's used to be old for our sport, competition was different if not better and they would chew you up if you didn't have it anymore, different from today.
Ali was greater than boxing. But I wouldn't say he was the greatest boxer. That's the paradox to me.
Neither did Foreman. They are both very odd in that way. Especially Ali with Parkinson but Foreman as well
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a lot of great boxers, all of them have different strengths and weaknesses, that's what we watch for, who can make the most of their strengths and minimize their weaknesses and vice versa. I think he was the greatest heavyweight but I wouldn't argue with joe Louis or even larry holmes although I wouldn't agree. ali was really amazing in how much he got out of what he had, without that chin, possibly none of it would have been possible.
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So if Pre retirement Foreman didn't fight like Pre-retirement Foreman he would have won? Shitty opinion. Do you not see what that means? You're indirectly admitting he's not a good enough fighter to beat Ali. Like I said before, If he avoided the rope-a-dope, it would have ended like Lyle too. If it was post-retirement foreman would have lost cause he's old this even slower.
The reason I say he is greater than boxing is that he did everything wrong. Partly due to the chin but even more so timing and movement. His actual boxing mechanics was believe it or not relatively mediocre. Yeah he had pretty fast hands but that's a boxing neutral attribute. Anything else, leverage, form, it was all wrong. Some claim that Ali was never formally taught to box and since he didn't need to, he never looked back
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ali said in the playboy interview that a foreman rematch would have been easier, i believe him, at least up until the point where ali could barely fight at all. It's a mental game and the loss drove george crazy. I love george and he's evolved into a good man but even today he tries to say he was poisoned and that he saw a guy he thought was his friend cheering for ali, and that later dick sadler joined ali's camp (true, but what he doesn't say is that boxing has always been incestuous and that dick sadler and ali went back to before Ali turned pro and was considered as a trainer for him, he says that ali drove him nuts and was too crazy for him, that he would lean out of a train and sing "the twist" over and over again, all the way to their destination and that he told Angie that he should get a medal for putting up with ali).
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I want you to think about something here, many fighters have been way more complete than ali but much less versatile, that is, if faced with a different enough fighter they would lose, not the case with the incomplete ali, how is that?
He had very long limbs for his time and could use his no style as style due to the usual range advantage, coupled with the things already mentioned. People forget how rangy he was. He could have easily fallen prey anyway if he didn't have excellent ring craftmanship, because his style was very loose...
So i would say ring craftmanship
