Is crucifix/jigoku jime now considered a pin in Judo?

[RJ Green]

Or rather, are referees going to notice the difference?

I've been playing with the Marcelo one-handed RNC for a few months, both from back mount and crucifix

Last week, I caught it on one of our best competitive players, who, after tapping, said "I guess once you're there you've got 20 seconds to put them out..."

My initial reply was 'nah dude, you can't be pinned from crucifix', but then I checked the 2018-2020 revisions:

Which the Kodokan is calling 'Ura Gatame'

Now, we can all see the subtle differences regarding control in this position. There's no choke applied by blue, white's arm isn't being controlled by blue, and blue's legs aren't actively trapping white's arm.

I guess it'll be interesting to see how referees interpret the new rules. You think it'd be cut-and-dry, but Judo rules are nothing if not numerous and vaguely-written.



To me, the problem arises from deciding who's got control of the position: if blue's got white's arms controlled - legs triangling the bottom arm, wrist control on the top arm, fishing for the choke - is blue being pinned? If, in the first picture, blue had white's gi across the neck and was actively choking her, does the pin still count?

Anybody? Bueller?

 

[Peuhkis]

Just choke the mf out. Ippon?

 

[nefti]

I'm suprised no one uses the truck in judo . Is it illegil?

 

[QingTian]

In Judo, that picture would be white pinning blue. It's doubtful whether refs would be skilled enough to tell who was actually in control, but in any case if blue had a good crucifix he can easily adjust.

 

[RJ Green]

I'm suprised no one uses the truck in judo . Is it illegil?

nah, totally legal. but since mount is a pin, judo players will straight up GIVE you their back by rolling into belly-down turtle. there's this sickness throughout the sport where people think you're ONLY supposed to win by a big, pretty throw. so if someone turtled, most people would disengage. the rules got changed about 4 years ago to adopt a 'let them play' approach. basically, groundwork continues as long as there's 'progress'. i still think belly-down turtling should be a penalty for defensive posture, but whatever.

tldnr - you could DO the truck, but you don't need to because Judo players that don't cross train will give you their back to avoid the pin.

 

[nefti]

nah, totally legal. but since mount is a pin, judo players will straight up GIVE you their back by rolling into belly-down turtle. there's this sickness throughout the sport where people think you're ONLY supposed to win by a big, pretty throw. so if someone turtled, most people would disengage. the rules got changed about 4 years ago to adopt a 'let them play' approach. basically, groundwork continues as long as there's 'progress'. i still think belly-down turtling should be a penalty for defensive posture, but whatever.

tldnr - you could DO the truck, but you don't need to because Judo players that don't cross train will give you their back to avoid the pin.

The truck is a folkstylef technique to attack the turtle into a pin. It would be perfect for what you described.

 

[nefti]

Example of it being used in wrestling

 

[efficientjudo]

Sadly - I think this position will always be awarded to white regardless of what Blue is doing - unless you get the tap, I would expect them to be counting you down in osaekomi.

 

[PointyShinyBurn]

Example of it being used in wrestling

Finishing position is not a pin in Judo because your legs are still entangled, plus the banana split as a submission is illegal.

 

[Fatman1]

I did something similar to that banana split pin in judo class once, the person went belly down and as I turned them over they put up a bit of resistance.

The head instructor, who I will not name but will say he's pretty high level and well respected, went absolutely mental at me for ''twisting the spine" of my partner. Said the move was illegal, dangerous, and that I was never to do it again.

The problem, I think, was that as my partner resisted their upper body remained flat on the floor whilst their hips/lower back rotated. Eventually, their whole body turns over but it starts at the legs/hips.

 

[selfcritical]

Just break 90 degrees and you'll be fine with the refs. If you're competing in a ruleset with pins, i don't think it's crazy that you should try to avoid your shoulders being on the mat while there's a person on top of you