Is casein protein just as important as whey?

[AfroBanana]

If you're paranoid buy a product made from NZ grass-fed milk. The price difference is minimal or even cheaper if you grab it on sale.

Amino acids are amino acids, your body doesn't care if it came from a whole food or a powder. Muscle protein synthesis studies are pretty much always done using whey or more rarely casein if they're testing something related to the slow release. Amino acids aren't a supplement, they're building blocks to create protein (longer chains of amino acids). Saying amino acids are a supplement is like saying fats and carbs are "supplements." They're food. Whey and casein is food.

My issue isn’t that with American (especially stuff from China) protein being processed or in powder form it’s that they tend to not be accurate with labels and is barely regulated. You can get the product and it has 60-70% of the alleged values or
Less even. It also can contain contaminants, allergens, toxins and heavy metals. They’re also often “spiking” the product.

Again this can be avoided by getting from a more stringent location or following 3rd party testing. As for your suggestion that sounds great and NZ might also have stringent testing.

So when I’m more inclined to eat whole food sources (because of the above) I still like to have a post workout shake) especially on the days I know I’m not getting as much protein as I like. I’ll def look into that.

And yes powder is food not a supplement but sadly the FDA categorizes it as a supplement so it is regulated just as poorly. They categorize the same as a vitamin or like creatine not as dairy or meat which has to meet FDA standards. Like you can’t just import milk and steak selling it on Amazon.

 

[Renard]

My issue isn’t that with American (especially stuff from China) protein being processed or in powder form it’s that they tend to not be accurate with labels and is barely regulated. You can get the product and it has 60-70% of the alleged values or
Less even. It also can contain contaminants, allergens, toxins and heavy metals. They’re also often “spiking” the product.

Again this can be avoided by getting from a more stringent location or following 3rd party testing. As for your suggestion that sounds great and NZ might also have stringent testing.

So when I’m more inclined to eat whole food sources (because of the above) I still like to have a post workout shake) especially on the days I know I’m not getting as much protein as I like. I’ll def look into that.

And yes powder is food not a supplement but sadly the FDA categorizes it as a supplement so it is regulated just as poorly. They categorize the same as a vitamin or like creatine not as dairy or meat which has to meet FDA standards. Like you can’t just import milk and steak selling it on Amazon.

The whey from NZ is popular because they banned the use of growth hormones and steroids in their cattle since the 80s, and use of antibiotics is heavily restricted. If an animal requires antibiotics, they're sequestered for several months and won't be used for milk or meat. The vast majority of their cattle are fed grass, no corn or grain. Basically very stringent rules compared to the rest of the world so you can't go wrong.

 

[Volador]

Just as important as whey. And Beef. And Chicken. And Fish. And Eggs.
What everybody should have is protein that has a complete amino acid profile.
There is nothing special about the source other than how it fits into your lifestyle and how your body reacts to it. ie some people are not tolerant of lactose or eggs.

Yes casein absorbs more slowly than whey. So? People seem to assume that this is better for hypertrophy and recovery because it seems like simple logic. Where is the proof of that? Not saying it's not true but I've never seen it.
Things are not always as simple as they appear. For example maybe whey is better because the AA levels peak higher and drop off quicker. If it's so much better than why would you use whey at all?

I agree with this. I’ve seen the “more slowly digested, so you should take it at night” claim many times, but every time I see a study, the differences seem insignificant. I think there’s this tendency to take theoretical and animal models and extrapolate information, without actually checking the experiments that reveal whether things work empirically on people or not, and also ignoring practical considerations. So, you can have a bunch of mechanistic explanations for why something should happen, but if it doesn’t actually happen in reality when you test it, then they’re bullshit. This I just came across today from Greg Nuckols, who’s usually pretty good:

 

[NoSmilez]

I don’t mind as long as we moved on from eating hydrolyzed whey. I remember it was the big thing here years ago. Worst dog shit tasting protein ever.

 

[1rawdog]

I agree with this. I’ve seen the “more slowly digested, so you should take it at night” claim many times, but every time I see a study, the differences seem insignificant. I think there’s this tendency to take theoretical and animal models and extrapolate information, without actually checking the experiments that reveal whether things work empirically on people or not, and also ignoring practical considerations. So, you can have a bunch of mechanistic explanations for why something should happen, but if it doesn’t actually happen in reality when you test it, then they’re bullshit. This I just came across today from Greg Nuckols, who’s usually pretty good:

Same experience, hence my sincere request earlier for some real legitimate science that proved that other fellows assertion.

I had a good laugh when I came on the site just now. That study popped up on my insta today too, I just came on to see if sherdog would allow a link to it. Clicked on my alerts and there was my answer.
Cheers

 

[Deaths Head]

Protein powders aren't as important as the industry makes it sound. With a proper diet a person can get an adequate amount of protein.

I’ve been hearing that since the 80”s ( and they were horrible back then trust me ) but no doubt there’s a big difference off them at least for me , muscle size are more fuller on them ,total weight is up and don’t feel as depleted . Recovery toile is also much better by at least 2 days , where off them it takes at least 3 more days of feeling more sore and muscles not as repaired .

I’m old school I still say you really need a good quality protein powder of a handful of different proteins in it to back up the hard training to speed up muscle recovery for maximum gains .

 

[icerealm]

most of the real food are slow acting aka casein anyway, eating real food is enough

 

[stevenandrew]

Just as important as whey. And Beef. And Chicken. And Fish. And Eggs.
What everybody should have is protein that has a complete amino acid profile.
There is nothing special about the source other than how it fits into your lifestyle and how your body reacts to it. ie some people are not tolerant of lactose or eggs.

Yes casein absorbs more slowly than whey. So? People seem to assume that this is better for hypertrophy and recovery because it seems like simple logic. Where is the proof of that? Not saying it's not true but I've never seen it.
Things are not always as simple as they appear. For example maybe whey is better because the AA levels peak higher and drop off quicker. If it's so much better than why would you use whey at all? capcut apk

Casein is useful, particularly for its slow absorption rate, which can support muscle recovery over longer periods, such as overnight. However, it is not as universally necessary as whey protein, which is absorbed more quickly and is ideal for post-workout. Whether you should include casein depends on your protein needs and goals. If your diet already provides sufficient protein, casein may not be essential.

 

[Deaths Head]

Just as important as whey. And Beef. And Chicken. And Fish. And Eggs.
What everybody should have is protein that has a complete amino acid profile.
There is nothing special about the source other than how it fits into your lifestyle and how your body reacts to it. ie some people are not tolerant of lactose or eggs.

Yes casein absorbs more slowly than whey. So? People seem to assume that this is better for hypertrophy and recovery because it seems like simple logic. Where is the proof of that? Not saying it's not true but I've never seen it.
Things are not always as simple as they appear. For example maybe whey is better because the AA levels peak higher and drop off quicker. If it's so much better than why would you use whey at all?

Casein isn’t better for recovery it’s purpose woukd be to keep your body in an Anobolic state throughout the day /night , Whey is quicker absorbed in the body initially it’s best for the first flow of amino acids back in the bloodstream post work out session within 1/2 hours . Slow absorption protein is best bf bed obviously bc it helps keeping the body anabolic.

There is no this or that one , personally my stomach never agreed with just a 100% whey product it upset it . I always used cassein if I had the choice and or a multi protein source that has variety so you get different times the proteins break down in the body .

 

[shadowmanifold]

Justin Harris gave the best summary of protein synthesis in the body, comparing it to sex while married. "It happens randomly and not very often".
The supplement industry basically exists to sell suckers protein snacks because you wouldn't have GNC if they were just selling vitamin D and magnesium.
Maybe you get a nice placebo effect if you think casein does something that has nothing to do with biology and that is not nothing.
You can't really be evidence based and knock the placebo effect. So yes, if you believe in the mythology that the body becomes "catabolic" at night then it makes perfect sense to ingest casein protein to ward of this catabolic witchcraft.
The kicker is that actually will work based on evidence.

 

[Contempt]

Another benefit of casein is, because it takes longer to break down, it keeps you feeling full for longer.

When having a low calorie day, I'll take one scoop of whey, one scoop of casein and mix with water for approx 250cal x3 during the day.

Gives a hood 2000cal deficit without feeling hungry, then back to maintenance the next day.

 

[1rawdog]

Casein is useful, particularly for its slow absorption rate, which can support muscle recovery over longer periods, such as overnight. LEGIT SCIENTIFIC SOURCE? However, it is not as universally necessary as whey protein, which is absorbed more quickly and is ideal for post-workout. WHY, WITH LEGIT SCIENTIFIC SOURCE?Whether you should include casein depends on your protein needs and goals. If your diet already provides sufficient protein, casein may not be essential. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THEESE TERMS -UNIVERSALLY NECESSRY AND ESSENTIAL?

I'm not sure what this reply is about, meaning why you posted it. Also I would ask if you actually read through the rest of the thread past my post before you replied? A study was posted that you my have missed or maybe wish to discredit.
I question some specifics of it in BOLD above. Basically the same thing I asked Banana for at the start of the thread, it's a genuine question, I'm not trolling or looking to argue for fun. I seek actual non-bro science answers not parroted so called common knowledge born from who knows where.

 

[1rawdog]

Casein isn’t better for recovery it’s purpose woukd be to keep your body in an Anobolic state throughout the day /night , Whey is quicker absorbed in the body initially it’s best for the first flow of amino acids back in the bloodstream post work out session within 1/2 hours . Slow absorption protein is best bf bed obviously bc it helps keeping the body anabolic.

There is no this or that one , personally my stomach never agreed with just a 100% whey product it upset it . I always used cassein if I had the choice and or a multi protein source that has variety so you get different times the proteins break down in the body .

I think for the most part we see this the same way but I have a question. Keeping in mind that the goal is important to the discussion, you mention anabolism so I'll assume you are trying to grow bigger and/or stronger. Let's assume everything you said in the first paragraph regarding "speed" is true at a basic level, I believe it is.
Could you present any non-bro science proof that the timing of either of these compounds or the use of one rather than the other makes a difference in the rate of muscle protein synthesis or the end result of hypertrophy?
No offence, just a simple honest, innocent question, please read the reply above for my disclaimer

 

[Deaths Head]

It doesn’t matter the rate of protein absorption one protein is slow absorbed the other faster , the end result is one would benefit from two or more proteins at different times if not at the same time ingesting multiple ones in one formula , it’s not a rate thing it’s a steady flow of amino acids continuously through out the day and night which is the goal not rate of protein synthesis bc it’s irrelevant with the longer term plan which is consistent influx of the nutrients in the bloodstream.

 

[1rawdog]

I appreciate the civil reply.

It doesn’t matter the rate of protein absorption one protein is slow absorbed the other faster , the end result is one would benefit from two or more proteins at different times if not at the same time ingesting multiple ones in one formula

Agreed, that is my opinion as well and basically the same answer I posted to the OP question.

... it’s a steady flow of amino acids continuously through out the day and night which is the goal

This was the crux of my question, is there any legit science that proves or disproves that? The study posted in this thread that came out after I first questioned it in post #5 seems to strongly suggest that this is not the case, IOW shouldn't be the goal.

not rate of protein synthesis bc it’s irrelevant with the longer term plan which is consistent influx of the nutrients in the bloodstream.

Irrelevant? MPS is literally the forming of new proteins in muscle tissue, if synthesis exceeds breakdown you have hypertrophy. If reversed you have atrophy. Of course you need the nutrients/aminos available at some point which again brings us back to the still unanswered question which boils down to is there any legit science which backs up our old school views regarding this aspect of protein intake?

To be fair the exact question was first asked of AfroBanana re: "You want fast protein post workout to replenish and slow proteins to recover" I asked if he had a non bro-science source for that. Unfortunately questioning his position appeared to send him into an emotional spiral which could have been avoided by simply replying with the very acceptable answer - "No I don't"

 

[Deaths Head]

I appreciate the civil reply.

Agreed, that is my opinion as well and basically the same answer I posted to the OP question.

This was the crux of my question, is there any legit science that proves or disproves that? The study posted in this thread that came out after I first questioned it in post #5 seems to strongly suggest that this is not the case, IOW shouldn't be the goal.

Irrelevant? MPS is literally the forming of new proteins in muscle tissue, if synthesis exceeds breakdown you have hypertrophy. If reversed you have atrophy. Of course you need the nutrients/aminos available at some point which again brings us back to the still unanswered question which boils down to is there any legit science which backs up our old school views regarding this aspect of protein intake?

To be fair the exact question was first asked of AfroBanana re: "You want fast protein post workout to replenish and slow proteins to recover" I asked if he had a non bro-science source for that. Unfortunately questioning his position appeared to send him into an emotional spiral which could have been avoided by simply replying with the very acceptable answer - "No I don't"

The body can only absorb so much protein at once into the muscle per day so th3 rate is irrelevant the synthesis rate is irrelevant as long as you have amino acids in the blood that’s what keeps the body Anobolic. The rate of recovery isn’t going to actually change and make you bigger faster in that day on proteins alone , growth hormone levels , age , genetics ,supplements like creatine can speed up recovery bc it stimulates muscle fibers and makes the muscles fuller with water retention etc etc ….can come into play as well .

 

[1rawdog]

The body can only absorb so much protein at once into the muscle per day so th3 rate is irrelevant the synthesis rate is irrelevant as long as you have amino acids in the blood that’s what keeps the body Anobolic. The rate of recovery isn’t going to actually change and make you bigger faster in that day on proteins alone , growth hormone levels , age , genetics ,supplements like creatine can speed up recovery bc it stimulates muscle fibers and makes the muscles fuller with water retention etc etc ….can come into play as well .

You have not answered the question and I don't think you really understand what some of the terms mean and that's just fine with me because you haven't freaked out like a lot of guys here do, Thanks for the conversation, take care.

 

[Trabaho]

Stop eating disgusting casein powder, it tastes shit for a reason. Eat some real cheese. Just compare the taste. It tastes better cause it is better. You brain washed supplement company sponsors. I'm not open for discussions cause your opinion relies on someone publishing an article on the wide web for you to link and say, yes ! That is it. Look article with pictures. It is true !

Fresh milk > old artificially tainted milk protein powder. I do like whey without additives, and put honey and spices / cocoa in it. But moderately. But casein tastes absolutely yuck. I bet you guys don't do the basics, like training 5x a week or 8 hours of sleep or veggies fruits daily. But you gotta make sure your supplements are top notch. Supplements are just copies of real food. I like the original real source. I mean whey is pretty decent. " I need casein cause some website told me I need to non stop have protein in my blood stream".

 

[Deaths Head]

You have not answered the question and I don't think you really understand what some of the terms mean and that's just fine with me because you haven't freaked out like a lot of guys here do, Thanks for the conversation, take care.

Yes, increased protein synthesis will generally speed up muscle recovery, as it provides the building blocks needed for muscle repair, meaning more protein synthesis means faster muscle rebuilding after exercise; however, there is a limit to how quickly muscles can rebuild, even with high protein intake, as the process is regulated by the body's physiological mechanisms .

Again your talking bro science here though not me about protein synthesis recovery ? I’m giving you actual details how the body heals through amino acid availability in the blood , protein synthesis happens wheather it’s immediate effect on rebuilding Muscle tissue or later on the muscle cannot heal faster because it will only absorb so much nutrients at one time period,you keep feeding the body however to keep it in a anabolic state .

Beyond protein you’d have to look into supplements for muscle recovery speed up that do actually work , Creatine, Agmatine Sulfate , Beta Alanine / Carnosyn , NAHD / CoQ 10, Collagen and a good omega 3 supplement are excellent supplements when taking correctly and at right times . There’s no protein synthesis here these are aids to support and or actually speed up muscle recovery , endurance and or eliminate joint pain and support natural testosterone .

The bottom line is a multi delivery protein powder is ideal mostly of slow and medium absorption proteins , faster protein synthesis is not a necessary because of the mentioned multiple times above .

 

[1rawdog]

Yes, increased protein synthesis will generally speed up muscle recovery, as it provides the building blocks needed for muscle repair, meaning more protein synthesis means faster muscle rebuilding after exercise; however, there is a limit to how quickly muscles can rebuild, even with high protein intake, as the process is regulated by the body's physiological mechanisms .

Again your talking bro science here though not me about protein synthesis recovery ? I’m giving you actual details how the body heals through amino acid availability in the blood , protein synthesis happens wheather it’s immediate effect on rebuilding Muscle tissue or later on the muscle cannot heal faster because it will only absorb so much nutrients at one time period,you keep feeding the body however to keep it in a anabolic state .

Beyond protein you’d have to look into supplements for muscle recovery speed up that do actually work , Creatine, Agmatine Sulfate , Beta Alanine / Carnosyn , NAHD / CoQ 10, Collagen and a good omega 3 supplement are excellent supplements when taking correctly and at right times . There’s no protein synthesis here these are aids to support and or actually speed up muscle recovery , endurance and or eliminate joint pain and support natural testosterone .

The bottom line is a multi delivery protein powder is ideal mostly of slow and medium absorption proteins , faster protein synthesis is not a necessary because of the mentioned multiple times above .

I'd like for us to be friends here and I am very aware that communication on a forum can be clunky but if you are trying to say that I am talking bro-science and you are not I have to laugh. Of course there is going to be some oversimplification to save some typing but I'll stand by my last post, there are a couple of key things you don't understand. I'll add that the tangents that you take like in the third paragraph here are not relevant and don't add anything to the discussion. I think we both can agree that what ultimately matters is consuming protein with a complete AA profile but that was settled back in the first few posts. I keep asking the same question over and over with no answer, I can't think of another way to put so I'm out.