Is Bo Nickal the beginning of a new wave or the exception?

[HuskySamoan]

Anyone who follows my posts on here knows I am heavily critical about the decline of American wrestlers in the UFC compared to 10+ years ago and also of how the UFC has shown very little interest in signing or grooming top flight US wrestlers as prospects anymore either. Many people have responded to this cluelessly claiming that "college wrestlers aren't transitioning to MMA as often as they used to" which is largely incorrect. Or they've said "American wrestling isn't as effective as it used to be" and while there MIGHT be some truth to that, I believe the reason why the UFC has moved away from signing American wrestlers is because they fear that they would still be TOO successful so they avoid it in favor of creating presumably a more exciting product. I feel the dominance of Caucasian MMA and their grappling in my eyes has somewhat served as a niche being filled in the meta that was removed somewhat intentionally by the UFC. Not to say I think US wrestlers are better, that's irrelevant to me in writing this and an entirely different discussion. I just feel we've missed out on some of the best potential in American MMA and athletes for years now in the UFC due to their decision to sign considerably less blue chip wrestlers. Trust me though, if you've followed Bellator, I believe despite half the roster size they have more division 1 and 2 US wrestlers than in the UFC currently.

So here's Bo Nickal U23 World Champ, Olympic Trials finalist 2020 (losing to David Taylor who went on to win gold in Tokyo), 3x D1 National Champion he's 26 years old and 3-0 just signed to the UFC. Touted as the next MW world champion in the making. Now there's a new wave of collegiate wrestlers coming behind them, does the UFC sign them? Will we see them on the contender series? Will they continue to get ignored and go to Bellator?

Nick Piccininni 26 years old, 3x D1 All American, 4x big 12 champion, 4-0 pro MMA training out of AKA fighting in the Flyweight division

Bryce Meredith 27 years old, 2x D1 National Champion Runner up, 3-0 pro MMA, trains out of the MMA Lab and is teammates with Sean O'Malley and Kyler Phillips as a fellow Bantamweight.

Jacobe Smith 26 years old, NJCCA 2x National Champion and D1 standout 4-0 pro MMA training out of AKA. Fighting at 170lbs

Anthony Cassar 26 years old, D1 National Champion, the only man to beat Olympic Gold Medalist Gable Stevenson in college and he did it twice. Training out of ATT and Bo Nickal's teammate 1-0 pro MMA. He's currently competing at Heavyweight with the intention to drop down to 205lbs

Regardless of how they've looked so far, regardless of some of the flops in Bellator but also many of the Bellator champions and title contenders being the wrestlers that they signed, the lack of wrestlers in the UFC and the existence of more US wrestlers in the UFC does truly change the game, the environment, the ability to avoid the wrestler test and get away with never having to face a top shelf wrestler deep into UFC careers etc. It changes the whole game. The sports better, the standard of athlete, the fighters all around games, its better having wrestlers in it. I hope to see more and more of these guys signed. Dominick Cruz is mentoring 2x D1 National Champion Roman Bravo (whos in his last year of wrestling) for his MMA career and he has already signed a contract with an MMA manager in anticipation for his debut once his college career is over.

To the bigger prospect heads than me, if I missed any blue chip US wrestling prospects in MMA please give them a shout and to the rest of you, let me know your thoughts. Is Bo the first of many, is the return of US wrestling having a strong presence in the UFC imminent? Likely to continue being avoided? Better for the sport? Do you have interest in seeing strong wrestlers clash with the strong eastern grapplers?

 

[Jawth]

I hope they continue to develop all kinds of talent, not just stand and bang fighters.

LHW sucking so much is in part to them letting fighters they thought were boring go even though they were still very good in Bader, Davis, and Anderson.

 

[RageQuitLord]

I made less detailed and awesome thread about this subject recently. I absolutely agree with everything you said it would raise the entire sport up to have more of these guys involved in the UFC. If you can't beat a guy like that how are you really champion in MMA. I think a lot of people don't understand there's more to MMA than this whole casual KO only crap.

 

[HuskySamoan]

I hope they continue to develop all kinds of talent, not just stand and bang fighters.

LHW sucking so much is in part to them letting fighters they thought were boring even though they were still very good in Bader, Davis, and Anderson.

Agreed, the UFC letting go of Bader, Davis and Anderson was a conscious decision though. I think they were legitimately scared that those guys would continue to orbit the top 5 and use their dominant grappling to derail guys they had hoped would become contenders like Johnny Walker, Jiri, Jamahal Hill etc.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

I think with those guys it depends on how they develop, Bo is special because he's put so much time into developing his BJJ (how many D1 wrestlers give up position for a mounted triangle?) and he has natural power on the feet.

I think D1 guys like Chasen Blair and Pat Downey losing to low level regional guys really shows that top shelf wrestling on it's own just isn't enough anymore.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

With regards to those mentioned I don't think any of those guys are ready at this point.

 

[jk7707]

He's on his way up.. But I'll reserve judgement until he fights someone that can really challenge him.

 

[HuskySamoan]

I think with those guys it depends on how they develop, Bo is special because he's put so much time into developing his BJJ (how many D1 wrestlers give up position for a mounted triangle?) and he has natural power on the feet.

I think D1 guys like Chasen Blair and Pat Downey losing to low level regional guys really shows that top shelf wrestling on it's own just isn't enough anymore.

Pat Downey isn't a good example, he started far too late at 30 years old and thought he could just jump into MMA and have an easy career path. He was also known as someone that lacked focus in wrestling and half assed things too. It was still, no doubt, shocking to see some 2-2 guy get up from his back, stuff takedowns and knock him out the way he did though. I'm not aware of Chasen Blair's story like wrestling credentials, the gym he trains out of, age etc. But the guys Ive mentioned all began training for MMA by 24 or earlier and seem to be building themselves up and they all sought out the right kind of gyms and teammates for the pursuit. They might not be ready for the UFC yet, but the UFC's divisions these days are also not the most ready for an insurgence of strong wrestlers either.

 

[textwarrior]

Rocky Marciano is often overlook for his greatness too in boxing for his short reach and only weighing at 185 for a HW but most do not know that he would have came in at 200 plus easily but he lacked skill technically and he knew that cause he lack coordination. He came in at 185 like an MMA fighter cause being at his lightest meant non stop punches. To be successful his coaches saw his potential still. A guy with stamina like a horse, so they made his heavy bag abnormally heavy, the bag was 275 pounds..its 4:00 in the video but 4:15 specifically.. plus in order to not move when he hit it cause his strength was the fact how hard he hit and in training it was devised for a non stop punching program. He went and had a non stop punching training regiment that was different. A short reach, but a leverage advantage, like someone who benches allot because of his short range leverage advantage, he decided to come into his fights at 185 in order to win with a non stop pressure punch.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

Pat Downey isn't a good example, he started far too late at 30 years old and thought he could just jump into MMA and have an easy career path. He was also known as someone that lacked focus in wrestling and half assed things too. It was still, no doubt, shocking to see some 2-2 guy get up from his back, stuff takedowns and knock him out the way he did though. I'm not aware of Chasen Blair's story like wrestling credentials, the gym he trains out of, age etc. But the guys Ive mentioned all began training for MMA by 24 or earlier and seem to be building themselves up and they all sought out the right kind of gyms and teammates for the pursuit. They might not be ready for the UFC, but the UFC's divisions these days are also not the most ready for an insurgence of strong wrestlers either.

I don't know how much regional MMA you watch but these guys with the credentials often make hard work of really low level fighters who guys on the early UFC prelims absolutely smash to get into contention on the regionals before getting in eventually.

In my head whenever I see someone was a D1 wrestler on the regionals I'm expecting easy blast doubles like the old days but it just doesn't work like that anymore and even these really low level guys have fairly solid TDD when things aren't set up.

Once they get good enough at striking to set up entries it can be a different story, but that's something not everyone manages.

 

[FIghtxIQ]

Wrestlers aren't being avoided in signing. Most of the Dagestani's they sign are all grapplers. For example which wrestling prospects haven't they signed besides the ones you just mentioned that are just starting their pro careers? Bo Nickal is a wrestler willing to train BJJ and be a mix of wrestling and BJJ. Most wrestlers aren't like Bo Nickal, they aren't as open minded with their grappling. So that's really the problem. If they can't finish the fight and all they really have is wrestling, they will lose to fighters with TDD, scrambles, BJJ, etc. You need to be well rounded in modern mma and wrestlers that can't pick up the striking and submission game don't get very far for the most part.

MMA grappling is different than just pure wrestling.

 

[HuskySamoan]

I don't know how much regional MMA you watch but these guys with the credentials often make hard work of really low level fighters who guys on the early UFC prelims absolutely smash to get into contention on the regionals before getting in eventually.

In my head whenever I see someone was a D1 wrestler on the regionals I'm expecting easy blast doubles like the old days but it just doesn't work like that anymore and even these really low level guys have fairly solid TDD when things aren't set up.

Once they get good enough at striking to set up entries it can be a different story, but that's something not everyone manages.

Nick Piccininni 4-0, 3 first round submissions

Jacobe Smith 4-0, 4 first round finishes

Anthony Cassar 1-0, 1 first round finish

So far none of these guys have struggled for the takedown besides maybe Meredith. Lets see, I'm sure many of them will pan out.

 

[HuskySamoan]

Wrestlers aren't being avoided in signing. Most of the Dagestani's they sign are all grapplers. For example which wrestling prospects haven't they signed besides the ones you just mentioned that are just starting their pro careers? Bo Nickal is a wrestler willing to train BJJ and be a mix of wrestling and BJJ. Most wrestlers aren't like Bo Nickal, they aren't as open minded with their grappling. So that's really the problem. If they can't finish the fight and all they really have is wrestling, they will lose to fighters with TDD, scrambles, BJJ, etc. You need to be well rounded in modern mma and wrestlers that can't pick up the striking and submission game don't get very far for the most part.

MMA grappling is different than just pure wrestling.

You just stated the obvious, MMA grappling is different than pure wrestling. It doesn't change the fact that fighters with strong wrestling bases and competitive athletic backgrounds at a high level for years isn't a huge skill that can be weaponized. No one besides an idiot in 2022 thinks that just wrestling is enough or that freestyle/folk/greco is the same as wrestling in MMA.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

Nick Piccininni 4-0, 3 first round submissions

Jacobe Smith 4-0, 4 first round finishes

Anthony Cassar 1-0, 1 first round finish

So far none of these guys have struggled for the takedown besides maybe Meredith. Lets see, I'm sure many of them will pan out.

I haven't seen Nick's latest fight yet or Smith's (will catch them during the week) but Cassar should have utterly blown through that dude.

The guys they're fighting at the moment are just so low level too. It's what happens when they get in with the regional mid carders where you can start to see if they have what it takes or not really (even if some dudes have faltered before they even get there).

If we take Piccinnini as an example then he'll get on the radar when he gets in with people like Eric Shelton, Lloyd McKinney and the other regional tests.

They shouldn't avoid guys with wrestling credentials but they also shouldn't sign them earlier than they would other regional guys just because they have wrestling credentials.

 

[HuskySamoan]

I haven't seen Nick's latest fight yet or Smith's (will catch them during the week) but Cassar should have utterly blown through that dude.

The guys they're fighting at the moment are just so low level too. It's what happens when they get in with the regional mid carders where you can start to see if they have what it takes or not really (even if some dudes have faltered before they even get there).

If we take Piccinnini as an example then he'll get on the radar when he gets in with people like Eric Shelton, Lloyd McKinney and the other regional tests.

They shouldn't avoid guys with wrestling credentials but they also shouldn't sign them earlier than they would other regional guys just because they have wrestling credentials.

No ones saying they should sign fighters just because they have wrestling credentials, but its clear to me from the fighters they let go and the fighters they never signed they clearly have a lack of interest in having too many good wrestlers around.

 

[Hellowhosthat]

No ones saying they should sign fighters just because they have wrestling credentials, but its clear to me from the fighters they let go and the fighters they never signed they clearly have a lack of interest in having too many good wrestlers around.

Which American wrestlers did they pass on though? I get that they let some go.

I can think of maybe Sabatello but he's horrifically boring and they've always avoided guys like that.

 

[Jawth]

Agreed, the UFC letting go of Bader, Davis and Anderson was a conscious decision though. I think they were legitimately scared that those guys would continue to orbit the top 5 and use their dominant grappling to derail guys they had hoped would become contenders like Johnny Walker, Jiri, Jamahal Hill etc.

Yeah, I agree. I'm not gonna lie and say any were must watches for me and I even made a noob hate thread on Anderson when he got slept by OSP but the Corey would be top five today most likely. Bader wouldve been around top five to ten range for a couple years, same with Phil.

 

[FIghtxIQ]

You just stated the obvious, MMA grappling is different than pure wrestling. It doesn't change the fact that fighters with strong wrestling bases and competitive athletic backgrounds at a high level for years isn't a huge skill that can be weaponized. No one besides an idiot in 2022 thinks that just wrestling is enough or that freestyle/folk/greco is the same as wrestling in MMA.

My point is who are the wrestlers that you are saying UFC is not signing? Bo Nickal is the fighter mentioned here and he's training BJJ and has offensive submissions. Most wrestlers don't, they just learn sub defense. That's one of the main differences between Bo Nickal and other wrestlers. Others are too prideful with wrestling and just stick to wrestling only.

The point is this post assumes UFC isn't signing American Wrestlers because they are too good. MMA grappling is different than pure wrestling was the point I'm making, assuming because they are wrestling based fighters that they will automatically be too good for mma grapplers isn't true. Many will struggle with strikers with solid TDD and scrambles, they will get submitted by submission grapplers. The point I'm making is that mma and mma grappling is evolving, just being a high level pure wrestler doesn't guarantee success anymore in modern mma like it did in the past.

 

[HuskySamoan]

Which American wrestlers did they pass on though? I get that they let some go.

I can think of maybe Sabatello but he's horrifically boring and they've always avoided guys like that.

Oh there's plenty in my opinion but this becomes a never ending back and forth between you and I. It's not a matter we see eye to eye on and that's okay. I was literally typing up a list and just chose to stop.

 

[HuskySamoan]

Oh there's plenty in my opinion but this becomes a never ending back and forth between you and I. It's not a matter we see eye to eye on and that's okay. I was literally typing up a list and just chose to stop.

The lack of guys they tried to sign from Bellator is problematic, when Bellator decided to sign them so early before the UFC could. Raufeon Stots was an obvious one to sign while in LFA though.