is big Nogueira still the undisputed second greatest heavyweight ever

Garnett Silk said:
Die hard Pride fanboys will ignore facts. Nogueira getting beat on in the UFC has definitely dropped him from being #2 of all time. How can he be #2 when he was beaten and finished by Mir twice???
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Probably because 2 fights dont cover an entire career. Is Hallman>Hughes? is Edgar>Penn? is Bendo>Edgar? Hendo>Shgoun at LHW, and so on and so on. In any of those cases you cant make a case for the winner being higher then the loser all time in a respective division.

Nog was the clear #2 Hw and at a certain point #1 for a period of 8 years. No other HW can make that claim aside for Fedor. If you look at this run at that point he pretty much beat every HW of his era aside Fedor. Cro Cop, Barnett, Herring, Randy, Tim, Ricco (dont give me this bad decision BS) Sergei, Werdum.

Anyone who places Mir over Nog is either is purposely doing so to shit on him, or has no clue what they are talking about. You have one fighter with 2 titles from the top two organizations, twice as many total wins and 3 times the top 10 wins. Not only that Nog lost to pretty much only top fighters, every loss he had was top 5 or 10 aside from Struve. Mir was beaten by average HW's like Vera, Freeman and Cruz. The only thing Mir has on him are the two wins, but again refer to the the first point I made.

As for Werdum, he never came close to being a #2 all time HW and up until last year wasnt even considered to be top 5 all time. 2 wins over Hunt and Cain dont get him over Nog. LIke I said earlier, Werdum has never had a period where he was the #1 or #2 Hw in the world for a good period of time. He just got that position now and he has to be in that position for a while. He has to prove he's the best or 2nd best HW of an era....in this case beat JDS, Arlovski, and another 1-2 guys, because at this point I dont think its clear Werdum can beat those guys.
 
Werdum may have surpassed him at this point.. But it really doesn't matter either! Nog is a fucking legend!!!
 
Frank Mir is higher on my list.
 
d3vil0ck said:
Yes he is. Anyone who says otherwise simply was not watching the sport during his prime and has only seen the UFC in the modern era. They buy the koolaid that a guy with like 5 fights in 5 years against 3 different people (Cain) is anywhere near the #2 spot despite getting destroyed twice now, losing definitively in two title matches (by KTFO and sub after a beating) in his physical prime... in just 15 fights.
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I have to agree with this here. A few points, if people didnt watch the sport or have a good understand of that ear during the early to mid 2000s then their opinion really has no merit. And, these days mma fans are too quick to call a guy GOAT or reaching a certain ranking based of recent accomplishments. A prime example of this Werdum, the guy wasnt even considered to be top 5 HW all time, then he beats Hunt and Cain and he's number 2. Same with a guy like Chris Weidman, fans started talking about him being goat after a few title wins.

Fans these days have to learn to give fighters time to reach these plateaus
 
Werdum getting overrated after this Cain win. He beat Fedor and Nog when they were past it and beat a Cain who looked nothing like his former self (be it altitude, PEDs, ring rust, whatever). He still has some brutal losses on his record in his supposed prime unlike Nog.

I'm not saying Nog is undisputed number 2, just that Werdum has less of a case. I'd put Cain or Nog at no.2. Cain's only lost to 2 guys. One he avenged and the other was when he really didn't look like himself.

MMA isn't like basketball. There is a very small sample size to judge fighters on. Circumstances and how they won make a big difference.
 
JKS won this thread with common sense and netted himself 3000 internet points in the process.

Nice.
 
Homeless Infant said:
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Fascinating. An equally skilled submission grappler whose career generally spanned 6-7 years past Noguiera's defeated him. Amazing work, bro. You've brought the truth to our eyes.
 
I love Nog like most Pride fans but Werdum is knocking on Fedor's door as the hw goat, at best Nog is #3.
 
Evangelion said:
He or Werdum, although with Nog done I could see Arlovski, Mir, Werdum and the Reem all passing him at some point
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Arlovski would have to win the belt again, and be dominant. Werdum could. Mir is in a weird situation of I think Nog should be above him in all time standing, but Mir beating him decisively twice definitely hurts that a bit. No way reem should ever be considered above him for impact as a HW legacy wise.
 
runnpray said:
Retires when there is talk of Fedor signing drops him a couple of slots on my list.
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Why? It's not like they needed to fight again. Fedor already punched the ticket for series win basically.
 
Werdum could arguably be tied with Fedor if not a close second. Big Nog falls in the top five or so.

1.Fedor/Werdum
Werdum
2.Werdum
3.Sylvia
4.Coleman(c'mon.. multiple tournament wins, 2000 GP)
5.Mir, Couture, Big Nog
6.Mir, Couture, Big Nog
7Mir, Couture, Big Nog( 5-7 however.)
8. Cro Cop
9. AA
10. Take your pick(Barnett, HuntO, Frye(tourny champ and legend), Severn(tourny champ,legend, champ in multiple orgs.), Big Country. Someone that has been a champ or contender or top ten for ten or fifteen years. Hell idk.
 
He was undoubtedly no2 but now i think that Werdum took that spot. He had a legendary run none the less, gawd bless Nog.
 
With a 2nd win over Cain or a win over JDS/Arlovski, Werdum takes his place. Nogueira is a still a beast though. One of the most legendary fighters in the sport.
 
Yes I would say still the 2nd best heavy of all time after Fedor.
 
Josh Barnett criminally underrated in this thread, i always had him as one of the very best heavyweights i had ever seen. His catch wrestling was fantastic and he was a very good striker.
 
I believe that a lot of MMA fans are new to sports and especially combat sports and just don't understand how a fighter fares in his later stages of his career is in no way reflective of how that fighter was during his prime. I see it all the time on this forum where aging fighters are treated as if they're in their prime and their skills/reflexes/abilities haven't deteriorated over time.

I've never seen boxing fans try and argue that Terry Norris is better than Sugar Ray Leonard or that Tarver is better than Roy Jones despite going 2-1 against him. I don't see boxing fans mentioning RJJ's fights that were well past his prime when they evaluate his legendary career, but I see MMA fans always bringing up Nog's fights in the UFC...if you want to argue that Nog wasn't past his prime when he entered the UFC, then you should at least be able to acknowledge that he was past his prime after he was TKO'd by Mir or Cain at the very least.

Personally, I thought Nog was on the downside during the Sylvia fight when he was getting dropped repeatedly and looked slow and sluggish throughout the fight, and no that's not the way he always looked in his fights.

Mir's first victory over Nog was a great win for Mir, but his second one was pretty meaningless in my opinion and that's not me having anything against Mir, but just being able to recognize where a fighter is at the time of the fight. Just like Vera's win over Mir doesn't mean anything to me because of how poorly Mir was looking at the time of the fight.
 
Werdum needs to defend that title a couple of times before being #2.
 
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