Is Anthony Joshua the worst of the best?

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

@Kovalev's "Man Bag" has been sucked in again, i swear they target you

I'm aware of who he is. He used to go by TownBiz on here until that name was banned. His origin story is from a subdivision of the YouTube Boxing Community called the LDBC (Lion's Den Boxing Community). I don't think he's a troll just a tribalist boxing "fan" that's ignorant and as stubborn as Spacetime.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

To wrap this up let's ask @brundlefly's own source, ChatGPT.

Larry Holmes was never officially the undisputed heavyweight champion, although he came very close.

Here's why:

Titles Held by Larry Holmes:​

• WBC Heavyweight Title (1978–1983)
• IBF Heavyweight Title (1983–1985)

Why He Was Not Undisputed:​

To be considered an undisputed champion, a boxer typically needs to hold all the major recognized belts at the same time. In Holmes's era, that meant:

• WBC (World Boxing Council)
• WBA (World Boxing Association)
• IBF (International Boxing Federation – starting in 1983)

Holmes never held the WBA title during his reign. In fact, when he won the WBC title in 1978 by defeating Ken Norton, the WBA title was held by Muhammad Ali, and later by other fighters like Mike Weaver and Gerrie Coetzee.

When the IBF was formed in 1983, Holmes became its first heavyweight champion after vacating the WBC title, but he still did not unify with the WBA champion.

Bottom Line:​

• Larry Holmes was lineal champion and widely regarded as the top heavyweight for years.
• But he was never the undisputed champion, since he never held all the major titles simultaneously.

For shits 'n giggles let's also ask Google Gemini (v2.5).

There you have it.

 

[SandisLL]

I'm aware of who he is. He used to go by TownBiz on here until that name was banned. His origin story is from a subdivision of the YouTube Boxing Community called the LDBC (Lion's Den Boxing Community). I don't think he's a troll just a tribalist boxing "fan" that's ignorant and as stubborn as Spacetime.

Something is telling me that he maybe is Spacetime, ofc improved during long years....

Especially interesting is that even (!) pro level headgears for motosport are sold with ofc bla bla bla , might reduce ( N.B reduce not prevent ) risk to get soft tissue and facial bones etc damage bla bla bla ...however no one serious seller is claiming that they prevent concussions.

If someonevin reality had even just a bit interest about boxing or motosport, most likely had spent some 5+ minutes to start research topic rather than years in forums.

Maybe he is different guy but clearly had read Spacetime and it's clones posts a lot.

 

[brundlefly]

To wrap this up let's ask @brundlefly's own source, ChatGPT.

Larry Holmes was never officially the undisputed heavyweight champion, although he came very close.

Here's why:

Titles Held by Larry Holmes:​

• WBC Heavyweight Title (1978–1983)
• IBF Heavyweight Title (1983–1985)

Why He Was Not Undisputed:​

To be considered an undisputed champion, a boxer typically needs to hold all the major recognized belts at the same time. In Holmes's era, that meant:

• WBC (World Boxing Council)
• WBA (World Boxing Association)
• IBF (International Boxing Federation – starting in 1983)

Holmes never held the WBA title during his reign. In fact, when he won the WBC title in 1978 by defeating Ken Norton, the WBA title was held by Muhammad Ali, and later by other fighters like Mike Weaver and Gerrie Coetzee.

When the IBF was formed in 1983, Holmes became its first heavyweight champion after vacating the WBC title, but he still did not unify with the WBA champion.

Bottom Line:​

• Larry Holmes was lineal champion and widely regarded as the top heavyweight for years.
• But he was never the undisputed champion, since he never held all the major titles simultaneously.

For shits 'n giggles let's also ask Google Gemini (v2.5).

There you have it.

Honestly, I don't know if to be weirded out or fascinated at how intransigent you are, dude.

Do you not see or remember when I called Holmes the "de facto" undisputed champ?

de fac·to
/ˌdā ˈfaktō/
adverb

1. in fact, or in effect, whether by right or not.

“In legal contexts, de facto describes what really happens, in contrast with de jure, which explains what the law says should happen.”

So, Chat GPT correctly points out that Weaver held the WBA title. Holmes did not unify with weaver while weaver was WBA champ. But holmes KO’ed weaver 9 months PRIOR to Weaver winning the WBA title.

Also, holmes beat witherspoon 10 months before witherspoon won the WBA title. Finally, Holmes also beat bonecrusher smith before bonecrusher became wba champ.

Based on these facts, it makes sense to acknowledge Holmes as the de facto undisputed champ. After all, he beat the men who beat the men at WBA.

ChatGPT goes on to say that “Larry Holmes was lineal champion and widely regarded as the top heavyweight for years.”

Based on those arguments, one could reasonably say that when undisputed LHW champ michael spinks lifted the crown from holmes, spinks essentially defeated the defacto undisputed HW champ and, thus, became the defacto undisputed HW champ himself.

That’s not what the record books say. It’s not what the governing bodies acknowledge. It’s not supported by the policies of any alphabet organization. I know all of this, so please stop with the bitchassness.

As BOXING fans, we recognize it's a reality of what actually happened.

Just as we recognize that Roy Jones, jr. was robbed in the gold medal fight against Park Si-Hun, even if you could point to the record books and the scores, etc. to say it's not so.

Can we, as reasonable men, agree that’s what happened or are you gonna continue to ride Usyk’s nuts by acting as if he did something unique and special by being undisputed at CW and HW?

​

​

 

[brundlefly]

Operative word here is 'sparring' which the headgear is mainly used for to prevent cuts (from head clashes, etc). Sparring gloves are not the same as competition gloves. In the amateurs they use 10 & 12 oz. In the pros is 8s & 10s. In sparring guys can use up to 20 oz. Secondly, sparring is practice. You're usually not going as hard as you would be in amateur or pro contests.

You've never wondered why you no longer see headgear worn at elite level international men's boxing events like the Olympics? Might want to read the studies on that. It doesn't protect against concussions (only cuts when used in sparring).

Why Olympic Boxers Aren’t Wearing Headgear Anymore

Amateur boxing is generally considered safer than professional boxing due to a combination of factors including shorter rounds, the use of headgear, and stricter refereeing. These measures are designed to reduce the risk and severity of injuries, particularly head trauma, which is a significant concern in both amateur and professional boxing.

Here's a more detailed breakdown:

• Shorter Rounds:
  Amateur bouts typically consist of fewer rounds, and each round is shorter (usually 2 minutes) compared to professional fights. This reduces the overall exposure to punches and the cumulative impact on the boxers.
  
  
• Headgear:
  Amateur boxers are required to wear headgear, which provides some protection against cuts and bruises and can help to reduce the severity of some impacts.
  
  
• Stricter Refereeing:
  Referees in amateur boxing are often more cautious and more likely to stop a fight to protect a boxer who is taking excessive punishment.
  
  
• Focus on Skill and Technique:
  While professional boxing emphasizes power and knockout potential, amateur boxing often places a greater emphasis on technique and scoring points, which can lead to a less aggressive and potentially safer style of fighting, according to a boxing coach.
  
  
• Matchmaking:
  Amateur boxing often prioritizes fair and competitive matchups based on experience, weight, and age, which can reduce the risk of mismatches and one-sided beatings.
  
  
• Lower risk of severe injuries:
  Some studies suggest that while amateur boxing is not without risk, the risk of severe injuries, particularly those related to head trauma, is lower than in professional boxing.
  
  Bottomline, the longer an amateur career is, the more opportunity afforded a fighter to basically fine tuning his skill and technique under strict safety and refereeing oversight
  
  
  
  

 

[brundlefly]

I'm aware of who he is. He used to go by TownBiz on here until that name was banned. His origin story is from a subdivision of the YouTube Boxing Community called the LDBC (Lion's Den Boxing Community). I don't think he's a troll just a tribalist boxing "fan" that's ignorant and as stubborn as Spacetime.

Wrong, dude. I'm not a "tribalist" anything. You probably see me that way because you're projecting and that's YOUR mentality. Not mine.

I have love for ALL fighters regardless of their race, religion, country of origin, etc. Some of my favorite fighters include Billy Joe Saunders and Ted Cheeseman. And I'm an african american.

I also don't know what the hell any of that other stuff you're talking about has to do with anything. Are you not able to stand behind your own arguments and beliefs without making ad hominems everytime somebody disagrees with your wrong, faulty and just plain dishonest views?

But it's really my fault for getting drawn into internet forum debates with dimbulbs I probably wouldn't even talk to IRL.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

Honestly, I don't know if to be weirded out or fascinated at how intransigent you are, dude.

Do you not see or remember when I called Holmes the "de facto" undisputed champ?

de fac·to
/ˌdā ˈfaktō/
adverb

1. in fact, or in effect, whether by right or not.

“In legal contexts, de facto describes what really happens, in contrast with de jure, which explains what the law says should happen.”

So, Chat GPT correctly points out that Weaver held the WBA title. Holmes did not unify with weaver while weaver was WBA champ. But holmes KO’ed weaver 9 months PRIOR to Weaver winning the WBA title.

Also, holmes beat witherspoon 10 months before witherspoon won the WBA title. Finally, Holmes also beat bonecrusher smith before bonecrusher became wba champ.

Based on these facts, it makes sense to acknowledge Holmes as the de facto undisputed champ. After all, he beat the men who beat the men at WBA.

ChatGPT goes on to say that “Larry Holmes was lineal champion and widely regarded as the top heavyweight for years.”

Based on those arguments, one could reasonably say that when undisputed LHW champ michael spinks lifted the crown from holmes, spinks essentially defeated the defacto undisputed HW champ and, thus, became the defacto undisputed HW champ himself.

That’s not what the record books say. It’s not what the governing bodies acknowledge. It’s not supported by the policies of any alphabet organization. I know all of this, so please stop with the bitchassness.

As BOXING fans, we recognize it's a reality of what actually happened.

Just as we recognize that Roy Jones, jr. was robbed in the gold medal fight against Park Si-Hun, even if you could point to the record books and the scores, etc. to say it's not so.

Can we, as reasonable men, agree that’s what happened or are you gonna continue to ride Usyk’s nuts by acting as if he did something unique and special by being undisputed at CW and HW?

​

Amateur boxing is generally considered safer than professional boxing due to a combination of factors including shorter rounds, the use of headgear, and stricter refereeing. These measures are designed to reduce the risk and severity of injuries, particularly head trauma, which is a significant concern in both amateur and professional boxing.

Here's a more detailed breakdown:

• Shorter Rounds:
  Amateur bouts typically consist of fewer rounds, and each round is shorter (usually 2 minutes) compared to professional fights. This reduces the overall exposure to punches and the cumulative impact on the boxers.
  
  
• Headgear:
  Amateur boxers are required to wear headgear, which provides some protection against cuts and bruises and can help to reduce the severity of some impacts.
  
  
• Stricter Refereeing:
  Referees in amateur boxing are often more cautious and more likely to stop a fight to protect a boxer who is taking excessive punishment.
  
  
• Focus on Skill and Technique:
  While professional boxing emphasizes power and knockout potential, amateur boxing often places a greater emphasis on technique and scoring points, which can lead to a less aggressive and potentially safer style of fighting, according to a boxing coach.
  
  
• Matchmaking:
  Amateur boxing often prioritizes fair and competitive matchups based on experience, weight, and age, which can reduce the risk of mismatches and one-sided beatings.
  
  
• Lower risk of severe injuries:
  Some studies suggest that while amateur boxing is not without risk, the risk of severe injuries, particularly those related to head trauma, is lower than in professional boxing.
  
  Bottomline, the longer an amateur career is, the more opportunity afforded a fighter to basically fine tuning his skill and technique under strict safety and refereeing oversight
  
  

Yeah, Holmes was never officially or unofficially undisputed. The entire timeline was already covered and your own source agrees with my conclusion. Thanks for making me laugh on the wear & tear subject as well. Your mental gymnastics won't work with me or any other halfway intelligent poster in this thread. You get better at professional boxing by gaining experience competing in professional boxing. An extensive amateur career may allow you to fast track your pro career early on but having hundreds of bouts to your name will absolutely cause more wear & tear. Feel free to ask any coach/trainer or fighter.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

are you gonna continue to ride Usyk’s nuts by acting as if he did something unique and special by being undisputed at CW and HW?

For the record I don't think Usyk is anywhere near a Top 10 ATG at heavyweight. But, sure, I'm "riding his nuts." Now get back to making those silly "P4P" (favorite fighters) lists you like to spam.

Usyk's the best heavyweight of this era but it's not enough to be rated an all-time great in boxing's marquee division. Cruiserweight is a different story. We've never seen a better run at that weight. It's just him and Holyfield. Joshua & Fury clearly aren't ATGs but they are future HOFers. They're 2 of the most recognizable names in the sport.

 

[brundlefly]

Yeah, Holmes was never officially or unofficially undisputed. The entire timeline was already covered and your own source agrees with my conclusion. Thanks for making me laugh on the wear & tear subject as well. Your mental gymnastics won't work with me or any other halfway intelligent poster in this thread. You get better at professional boxing by gaining experience competing in professional boxing. An extensive amateur career may allow you to fast track your pro career early on but having hundreds of bouts to your name will absolutely cause more wear & tear. Feel free to ask any coach/trainer or fighter.

Nah. Holmes was unofficially undisputed. Just apply some critical thinking to the timelines you love to cite, and putting two and two together should lead you to that conclusion. Anybody who is unbiased and has a couple of working brain cells can clearly see that.

As for amateurs taking wear and tear, the ChatGPT readout broke it down for you in a very simple way that's easy to follow. Having a long amateur career works more in a fighter's favor than against them, because they're more able to develop their skills in relative safety compared with pro fighters.

Therefore, guys like GGG, Loma, Usyk, Fury, etc, that had long amateur careers are going to be far more advanced than many top professional boxers with limited amateur experience (AJ, Dubois), and more likely to succeed for longer period at a higher level, simply because they have fully mastered the fundamentals and developed higher level skills, and had more exposure to different styles, etc., while risking a lot less damage to themselves as they build their skillset. Same goes for american fighters back in the day like Frank Tate, Sweet Pea, virgil hill and others who had hundreds of amateur fights and would dominate guys with limited amateur experience who had been pros 10 years longer than they had.

I already explained to you, my PFP lists are for my own amusement. Unlike you, I don't cite PFP lists from the internet as serious source material. You look silly salivating over make-believe PFP listings from Boxrec and ESPN, but when faced with actual reality, you can't stand to accept it.

 

[brundlefly]

BTW, just as an observation to something said a few posts ago, the HW divsion is no longer boxing's "marquee" division. This might have been the case decades ago, but not any longer, and not for a long time. The HW division is a ghost town. It's been that way since the Klitchsko brothers era. Or more to the point, it's been that way since names like Tyson, Holyfield and Lewis retired from boxing.

Until American fighters start to get back in the game, the HW division is gonna continue to go downhill until it fades into bolivian, in the words of mike tyson. There's just not that much incentive for talented American athletes to become HW boxers when they can make a ton more money a hell of a lot safer in other sports. Therefore, there's also less draw for talented athletes from other countries to join the ranks of HW boxers looking for glory.

This is why the quality of the HW division has fallen so low that a guy like Wilder could be champ for 5 years, when he's barely as skilled as an intermediate amateur. It's why Francis Ngannou, in his FIRST (and i mean DEBUT) professional boxing match can drop the champ (fury) and take him 12 hard rounds, winning the fight in a lotta people's opinion. The fact that a slow, clumsy, oaf like Joe Joyce could get within a hairs breadth of a title shot proves that HW boxing is in the basement, and it really doesn't matter who holds the title, because all it takes is to be a step above trash.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

Nah. Holmes was unofficially undisputed. Just apply some critical thinking to the timelines you love to cite, and putting two and two together should lead you to that conclusion. Anybody who is unbiased and has a couple of working brain cells can clearly see that.

As for amateurs taking wear and tear, the ChatGPT readout broke it down for you in a very simple way that's easy to follow. Having a long amateur career works more in a fighter's favor than against them, because they're more able to develop their skills in relative safety compared with pro fighters.

Therefore, guys like GGG, Loma, Usyk, Fury, etc, that had long amateur careers are going to be far more advanced than many top professional boxers with limited amateur experience (AJ, Dubois), and more likely to succeed for longer period at a higher level, simply because they have fully mastered the fundamentals and developed higher level skills, and had more exposure to different styles, etc., while risking a lot less damage to themselves as they build their skillset. Same goes for american fighters back in the day like Frank Tate, Sweet Pea, virgil hill and others who had hundreds of amateur fights and would dominate guys with limited amateur experience who had been pros 10 years longer than they had.

I already explained to you, my PFP lists are for my own amusement. Unlike you, I don't cite PFP lists from the internet as serious source material. You look silly salivating over make-believe PFP listings from Boxrec and ESPN, but when faced with actual reality, you can't stand to accept it.

You are absolutely delusional. But, if it helps you sleep at night then sure you can pretend that Holmes unified all of the titles. Feel free to believe in Santa and the Easter Bunny as well.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

BTW, just as an observation to something said a few posts ago, the HW divsion is no longer boxing's "marquee" division. This might have been the case decades ago, but not any longer, and not for a long time. The HW division is a ghost town. It's been that way since the Klitchsko brothers era. Or more to the point, it's been that way since names like Tyson, Holyfield and Lewis retired from boxing.

Until American fighters start to get back in the game, the HW division is gonna continue to go downhill until it fades into bolivian, in the words of mike tyson. There's just not that much incentive for talented American athletes to become HW boxers when they can make a ton more money a hell of a lot safer in other sports. Therefore, there's also less draw for talented athletes from other countries to join the ranks of HW boxers looking for glory.

This is why the quality of the HW division has fallen so low that a guy like Wilder could be champ for 5 years, when he's barely as skilled as an intermediate amateur. It's why Francis Ngannou, in his FIRST (and i mean DEBUT) professional boxing match can drop the champ (fury) and take him 12 hard rounds, winning the fight in a lotta people's opinion. The fact that a slow, clumsy, oaf like Joe Joyce could get within a hairs breadth of a title shot proves that HW boxing is in the basement, and it really doesn't matter who holds the title, because all it takes is to be a step above trash.

Heavyweight has always been and always will be the marquee division. It's a top-down sport not bottom-up. No other weight class is as historically rich, popular, or financially lucrative. Just FYI no male American boxer has won Olympic gold in any division since 2004 (Andre Ward). You can't just point the finger at heavyweight in the pros. Where do you think the talent comes from? Most of it starts in the amateurs which is typically where a fighter's foundation is formed. Also, Fury vs Ngannou wasn't 12 rounds it was a 10 round non-championship fight that Fury clearly didn't train for.

 

[SandisLL]

Wrong, dude. I'm not a "tribalist" anything. You probably see me that way because you're projecting and that's YOUR mentality. Not mine.

I have love for ALL fighters regardless of their race, religion, country of origin, etc. Some of my favorite fighters include Billy Joe Saunders and Ted Cheeseman. And I'm an african american.

I also don't know what the hell any of that other stuff you're talking about has to do with anything. Are you not able to stand behind your own arguments and beliefs without making ad hominems everytime somebody disagrees with your wrong, faulty and just plain dishonest views?

But it's really my fault for getting drawn into internet forum debates with dimbulbs I probably wouldn't even talk to IRL.

This alone is fake. You never had competed in am boxing tournament format while a lot of guys here had.

You are using some chatbot programs to have argument here. Chatbot maybe isn't programmed that a lot of ppl posting here didn't had asked for some specific tag for profile. More than you might imagine.

 

[treelo]

you cant just stick defacto in front of a word to justify you being completely fucking wrong, it doesnt work like that

 

[SandisLL]

Next, but it isn't for lazy trolls.
In am boxing you ofc in low or medium level scene do have advantage if you are local and do know refs and judges actions flowcharts. What kind of stuff they will value more likely, stuff ref will not bear etc.
However you should compete in tournament format everyone next or go home. No time for yelling and PR shit.

In am boxing there are low chances to get someone in ring with 1-3 days notice or very lazy guy who doesn't train. Cos they does know with advance that there will be torunament. They also does know that they will get something good for their future only if they will get medals, cups etc. Sponsors aren't willing to invest in loosers. Ofc there might be exceptions: am boxing record isn't valued by holy 0 at all.
If you had been excepted to loss easily and had lost barely vs better than you am, maybe you are perspective. If you aren't damaged.


In pro boxing you if have good support and matchmaker, they easily might get some easy to win fights. For example even like very short notice boxer with bad record vs you after long training camp.

Also pro boxing does have 4, 6, 8, 10 and 12 rounds fights.
Events promoters aren't willing to pay for 10 rounds fights for low ranked nobodies nonames...
Commisions usually allow 10 rounders for enough highly ranked boxer and 12 rounders for title fights.

 

[SandisLL]

Am boxing style actually is very aggressive exactly cos you have lesser time to demonstrate activity and mobility etc.

About stuff that " am boxing " doesn't exaust and doesn't cause wear and tear maybe better is to ask Lopez, Ward, DLH and they will explain. BTW some notable promoters too might tell a lot. For example old Bob's son or Eddie. They does have more IQ than chat programs.

 

[SandisLL]

Yeah, Holmes was never officially or unofficially undisputed. The entire timeline was already covered and your own source agrees with my conclusion. Thanks for making me laugh on the wear & tear subject as well. Your mental gymnastics won't work with me or any other halfway intelligent poster in this thread. You get better at professional boxing by gaining experience competing in professional boxing. An extensive amateur career may allow you to fast track your pro career early on but having hundreds of bouts to your name will absolutely cause more wear & tear. Feel free to ask any coach/trainer or fighter.

Holmes IMHO had suffered from Don and Co.

At first cos he get bout vs ill Ali, who obiviously had coordination level not enough to drive car.
Next episode to tackle out from retirement uncle Holmes for Mike.

Remember famous phrase: " look this is my prospect and he is UNDEFEATED. Gerald. ". Don.
" I will kill you, Gerald told Nigel in weight ins ".

 

[brundlefly]

You are absolutely delusional. But, if it helps you sleep at night then sure you can pretend that Holmes unified all of the titles. Feel free to believe in Santa and the Easter Bunny as well.

LOL! Dude, holmes didnt unify all the titles. But he beat the champions of the other organization. That's why he was "defacto" unified champ. It really isnt that hard to understand unless you have a vested interest in not understanding or accepting that reality.

 

[Blastbeat]

you know, if that talk about Jake Paul wanting to fight AJ is real, AJ could absolutely be a darling forever to the boxing world if he lays Jake Paul out stiff

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

LOL! Dude, holmes didnt unify all the titles. But he beat the champions of the other organization. That's why he was "defacto" unified champ. It really isnt that hard to understand unless you have a vested interest in not understanding or accepting that reality.

Again, it doesn't work like that. Tim Witherspoon used to post here btw. His account is still here. Feel free to ask him if Holmes would be considered de facto unified/undisputed. I've never heard Holmes refer to himself as that, either.