Is American/Full Contact Kickboxing dead in the United States?

If they had adapted to low kicks (which they stupidly didn't), Muay Thai would almost certainly not have ascended the way it did.
You doesn't seem to understand this isn't something easy by any means..
Certainly easier said than done.

Like Yodsanan said, it take years to learn about low kicks and these AK guys that aren't familiarized with them will have a really hard time because they don't have the muscle memory necessary to just deal with it once they aren't quick enough to either check the kick or to remove the leg, avoiding it. These thai guys are kicking and taking low kicks since kids, you won't start training leg kicks at 25 years old and *adapt to it* quickly. Not only that, but saying that leg kicks are the ONLY weakness of this style is false. Constant pressure against the robes is another one, you can see how Daniels for example wasn't comfortable with Bazooka Joe walking forward and not giving him any space, same for what Holzken did to him.

IF was THAT simple, AK guys would've figured it out by now and the kickboxing world would be dominated by previously AK competitors who adapted. Turns out it just isn't the most effective style to full contact, simple as that.

It's like saying all TKD needs to do is adapt to the K1 ruleset and they will be ready to take over, since they have many other cool and flashy stuff with their kicks lol

Thais absolutely can throw it, they choose not to because A) it's % of landing isn't very high and it's a risky move, you can get countered and stopped and B) takes too much energy to a low % success strike
 
For AK to see its time in the sun it needs to have someone who starts AK and then becomes a star in boxing or MMA but still reps AK. Like imagine if Chris Algieri dominated Pacquiao then started doing tornado kicks and bowed to the four directions.
 
Like Yodsanan said, it take years to learn about low kicks and these AK guys that aren't familiarized with them will have a really hard time because they don't have the muscle memory necessary to just deal with it once they aren't quick enough to either check the kick or to remove the leg, avoiding it.

I'm not even sure why it should matter. Boxers are also susceptible to low kicks. Hell, they're susceptible to ALL kicks because they're not used to that shit.

But do we shit on boxing for that or toss it to the dogs? Obviously not. We just accept that boxers have chosen to dedicate themselves to certain skills and not others.

So I'm not sure why American Kickboxing got the treatment it did. It's no different, really. They just combined Western boxing with above-the-waist kicks from karate and TKD to make a hybrid sport, and those are the skills that they chose to dedicate themselves to.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
For AK to see its time in the sun it needs to have someone who starts AK and then becomes a star in boxing or MMA but still reps AK. Like imagine if Chris Algieri dominated Pacquiao then started doing tornado kicks and bowed to the four directions.

I think it would be very hard for someone who splits his training time between boxing and learning to kick well to go defeat a dedicated boxer in boxing. MMA would probably be more likely, but the problem is that there's not much in the way of an American Kickboxing professional circuit anymore so I'm not sure where those guys would come from.

While guys might still be fighting under AK rules in sport karate tournaments or whatever, gone are the days where stars like Bill Wallace, Don Wilson and Dennis Alexio attracted big crowds and had huge fan bases.

I remember seeing a Dennis Alexio fight several years ago. I remember it was an outdoor bout and there were a ton of fans in the stands watching it. That whole scene just doesn't even exist anymore so I'm not sure where these pro-level AK guys could even be found.
 
I'm not even sure why it should matter. Boxers are also susceptible to low kicks. Hell, they're susceptible to ALL kicks because they're not used to that shit.

But do we shit on boxing for that or toss it to the dogs? Obviously not. We just accept that boxers have chosen to dedicate themselves to certain skills and not others.

So I'm not sure why American Kickboxing got the treatment it did. It's no different, really. They just combined Western boxing with above-the-waist kicks from karate and TKD to make a hybrid sport.
Because American Kickboxers were saying their style was the most effective in a STAND UP fight, and that's not true at all, it's effective at their ruleset, which is much more restrictive, and that's the reason to why it works there and pretty much doesn't under K1 rules.

Back then, boxing guys weren't claiming they could beat thais and dutch kickboxers in a match with kicks allowed, AK guys were. Roufus went to that fight thinking he would win, trying to. They believed in their style and had a reality check, losing to a much smaller guy. That happened many times. This debate is going on for 30 years and there is still people out there saying that
It's an extremely effective style that unfortunately lost out to Muay Thai, which in my opinion is a vastly inferior style in most ways.
False. The only way American Kickboxing is more effective is under their own ruleset.

Once they got *exposed*, you gotta think people would stop saying that, but no, it will never go away, because people like flashy stuff over effective and actually more useful stuff. Therefore, they will die in that hill.
 
Because American Kickboxers were saying their style was the most effective in a STAND UP fight, and that's not true at all, it's effective at their ruleset, which is much more restrictive, and that's the reason to why it works there and pretty much doesn't under K1 rules.

Back then, boxing guys weren't claiming they could beat thais and dutch kickboxers in a match with kicks allowed, AK guys were. Roufus went to that fight thinking he would win, trying to. They believed in their style and had a reality check, losing to a much smaller guy. That happened many times. This debate is going on for 30 years and there is still people out there saying that
False. The only way American Kickboxing is more effective is under their own ruleset.

Once they got *exposed*, you gotta think people would stop saying that, but no, it will never go away, because people like flashy stuff over effective and actually more useful stuff. Therefore, they will die in that hill.

All of that shit was years and years ago.

Okay, maybe AK guys get beat by MT guys under MT rules. That's well enough.

Shouldn't everyone have just moved on then and let everybody do what they do? Did that mean American Kickboxing had to die?
 
All of that shit was years and years ago.

Okay, maybe AK guys get beat by MT guys under MT rules. That's well enough.

Shouldn't everyone have just moved on then and let everybody do what they do? Did that mean American Kickboxing had to die?
By MT guys under K1 rules as well.

To your question.. no, just that non sense of "American Kickboxing is a superior style, they just need to adapt it to low kicks", that certainly should've gone away by now.


As far as the american kickboxing scene.. i have no interest in that, maybe so does the market? Who actually knows.
 
As far as american kickboxing.. i have no interest in that, maybe so does the market? Who actually knows.

I'm not 100% sure exactly how it happened that AK fell apart in the United States. I can't imagine it's just because some guys went and got beat fighting under a different ruleset, especially considering that MT didn't exactly explode in popularity in the US.

From the 1970s all the way through the mid-90s it was fairly popular. I'm sure that K-1 and heightened awareness of MT did have something to do with it but I have to wonder if MMA was really the killing blow.

Boxing fans just kept watching boxing and karate guys got enamored with MMA. Perhaps that just didn't leave any room for kickboxing, which really has not been especially popular in the US, in any form and at any time, since AK's decline in the 90s.

Glory and Bellator are both trying to make in-roads into the US market now but I don't know anyone outside of Sherdog who's paying attention to any of that.
 
I'm not 100% sure exactly how it happened that AK fell apart in the United States. I can't imagine it's just because some guys went and got beat fighting under a different ruleset, especially considering that MT didn't exactly explode in popularity in the US.

From the 1970s all the way through the mid-90s it was fairly popular. I'm sure that K-1 and heightened awareness of MT did have something to do with it but I have to wonder if MMA was really the killing blow.

Boxing fans just kept watching boxing and karate guys got enamored with MMA. Perhaps that just didn't leave any room for kickboxing, which really has not been especially popular in the US, in any form and at any time, since AK's decline in the 90s.

Glory and Bellator are both trying to make in-roads into the US market now but I don't know anyone outside of Sherdog who's paying attention to any of that.
Yeah pretty much this, can't believe Glory and Bellator are still trying to build their shows targeting North American audience/market, kickboxing is much stronger and bigger in Europe and Japan, they should just give up imo. MMA with UFC, Bellator, now PFL and regional shows, AND boxing which has been making a comeback in the last 2 years, are just enormous industries, they will overshadow any attempt to make kickboxing great again in the US.
 
Yeah pretty much this, can't believe Glory and Bellator are still trying to build their shows targeting North American audience/market, kickboxing is much stronger and bigger in Europe and Japan, they should just give up imo. MMA with UFC, Bellator, now PFL and regional shows, AND boxing which has been making a comeback in the last 2 years, are just enormous industries, they will overshadow any attempt to make kickboxing great again in the US.

Well, I would actually like to see them succeed so I appreciate the effort and hope they keep going with it. But I do agree with you that it's going to be a tough road and success is far from guaranteed.
 
For fuck sake, PKA AKB did have low kicks allowed. PKA had don the dragon and Benny Urquidez. So one organisation of American Kickboxing allowed it, the other didn't. Read up dudes.
 
And dick rofus always had low kicks in his AKB organisation long before fighting the Thai. They just weren't valued as much and pretty frowned upon. Do the dragon Wilson was one of the few who used them a lot
 
You doesn't seem to understand this isn't something easy by any means..
Certainly easier said than done.

Like Yodsanan said, it take years to learn about low kicks and these AK guys that aren't familiarized with them will have a really hard time because they don't have the muscle memory necessary to just deal with it once they aren't quick enough to either check the kick or to remove the leg, avoiding it. These thai guys are kicking and taking low kicks since kids, you won't start training leg kicks at 25 years old and *adapt to it* quickly. Not only that, but saying that leg kicks are the ONLY weakness of this style is false. Constant pressure against the robes is another one, you can see how Daniels for example wasn't comfortable with Bazooka Joe walking forward and not giving him any space, same for what Holzken did to him.

IF was THAT simple, AK guys would've figured it out by now and the kickboxing world would be dominated by previously AK competitors who adapted. Turns out it just isn't the most effective style to full contact, simple as that.

It's like saying all TKD needs to do is adapt to the K1 ruleset and they will be ready to take over, since they have many other cool and flashy stuff with their kicks lol

Thais absolutely can throw it, they choose not to because A) it's % of landing isn't very high and it's a risky move, you can get countered and stopped and B) takes too much energy to a low % success strike

I'm saying that AK should have changed its rules to allow lowkicks so that guys would come up through the ranks learning it.

TKD's flaw is that the punching, when there even is any, is straight garbage. If a TKD guy developed solid boxing, he'd be pretty good.

Most Muay Thai guys do not even learn anything besides round house kicks (and push kicks). I know this because I trained Muay Thai. It's pretty much just round house kicks. There is no good reason for that.
 
And dick rofus always had low kicks in his AKB organisation long before fighting the Thai. They just weren't valued as much and pretty frowned upon. Do the dragon Wilson was one of the few who used them a lot

Interestingly, Don Wilson had good success against Muay Thai fighters.
 
I'm saying that AK should have changed its rules to allow lowkicks so that guys would come up through the ranks learning it.

TKD's flaw is that the punching, when there even is any, is straight garbage. If a TKD guy developed solid boxing, he'd be pretty good.

Most Muay Thai guys do not even learn anything besides round house kicks (and push kicks). I know this because I trained Muay Thai. It's pretty much just round house kicks. There is no good reason for that.

Yes there is. Muay Thai is great precisely because of the narrow focus on few but very practical kicks. Very similiar to western boxing in that respect.
 
Interestingly, Don Wilson had good success against Muay Thai fighters.

And a washed up, old, slow boxer Ray Mercer checked 1 low kick in 3 rounds against Musashi, threw no kicks himself Yet never went down. There are more variables than low kicks.
 
Yes there is. Muay Thai is great precisely because of the narrow focus on few but very practical kicks. Very similiar to western boxing in that respect.

It's a weakness. If your opponent has a variety of techniques and you have one, you're at a huge disadvantage.
 
And a washed up, old, slow boxer Ray Mercer checked 1 low kick in 3 rounds against Musashi, threw no kicks himself Yet never went down. There are more variables than low kicks.

Sure but when you combine a few different pieces of information, it's hard not to come to the conclusion that Muay Thai is just a relatively limited style.

Roufus was killing the Thai guy until the leg kicks came into the picture.
Wilson had success, perhaps precisely because he was better able to handle leg kicks.
From a common sense point of view, being more mobile and versatile is better than being plodding and only having a few options.
 
Sure but when you combine a few different pieces of information, it's hard not to come to the conclusion that Muay Thai is just a relatively limited style.

Roufus was killing the Thai guy until the leg kicks came into the picture.
Wilson had success, perhaps precisely because he was better able to handle leg kicks.
From a common sense point of view, being more mobile and versatile is better than being plodding and only having a few options.


As I recall, Dick Rofus was outboxing the Thai all rounds, dropped him and broke his jaw. Been a few years since I watched it.
 
Back
Top