is 5/4/3/2/1 good for benching?

[lionsden2009]

Just a little background, i'm almost 18 years old and im 5'10" 170 pounds. ive had two amatuer thaiboxing fights and wrestled for a year in high school and also played football. Over the last few months, i've started hitting the weights.

I run a 5x5 on squats, and a 3x5 on deadlifts. but ignore that...

I've messed with a lot of different bench routines just to change things up. I've done 5x5, 8/4/2, pyramids, and some other stupid routines lol. But in varsity football, my benching routine was 5/4/3/2/1 on the flat bench and the incline bench and ive been back to that.

My 1rm is 235 pounds, and when I flat benched yesterday it went like this:

Warmup: 25 reps of the bar, followed by 10 reps of 115, OR a 5 minute jog
5 reps of 165 pounds
4 reps of 190 pounds
3 reps of 205 pounds
2 reps of 220 pounds
1 rep of 235 pounds

then i'll start my incline at 160 and raise either 5 pounds or 7.5 pounds each set, depending on how i feel.

is that routine okay for bench press?

 

[MatterOverMind]

Nope. It's pretty shitty.

It's not even a routine. It's just working up to a heavy single.

There's not enough volume and there's no progression.

 

[CRZA]

How are you planning on progressing?

 

[lionsden2009]

ive went from 205 to 235 in a few months so...i guess thats how. and like i said, i change my routine up sometimes. so basically, 5x5 is the end all-be all on the strength and conditioning forums of sherdog?

 

[lionsden2009]

Nope. It's pretty shitty.

It's not even a routine. It's just working up to a heavy single.

There's not enough volume and there's no progression.

sorry for the double post, but..how? i'm adding weight each time and doing it succesfully so i dont get how theres no progression lol

 

[MatterOverMind]

so basically, 5x5 is the end all-be all on the strength and conditioning forums of sherdog?

No.


Fine. You seem to like your "routine" and it's working for you, so keep doing it. But how long do you expect to be able to keep adding weight before you stall out?

Why ask for an opinion/advice if you don't want hear it?

 

[SteveX]

No routines with proper progression and periodization are the be-all-end-all. What you're doing contains neither of those. The reason your bench went up is most likely do to your nervous system becoming more efficient at the movement. That being the case, you could have done any "routine" and seen comparable results.

Don't try to reinvent the wheel. People way better at this than both of us have done the trial and error for us and have come up with some great routines. Follow one of them without tweaking it and you will see results.

 

[KnightTemplar]

Actually, it is a routine. Kind of. There was a thread about it on T-Nation, IIRC. The same rep system was also a favourite of Dr Pasquel(sp?)a former elite Powerlifter.

It's a fairly simple system: you use the 5/4/3/2/1 progression with one Big Three Lift each workout. The rest of the session is assistance work with much lighter weight and higher volume.

TS, if it's working for you, keep running it. End of.

 

[lionsden2009]

No.


Fine. You seem to like your "routine" and it's working for you, so keep doing it. But how long do you expect to be able to keep adding weight before you stall out?

Why ask for an opinion/advice if you don't want hear it?

I do want to hear it lol and you're probably right. God forbid I saw flaws with what you said. Just asked for a clarification, thats all

 

[SteveX]

Actually, it is a routine. Kind of. There was a thread about it on T-Nation, IIRC. The same rep system was also a favourite of Dr Pasquel(sp?)a former elite Powerlifter.

It's a fairly simple system: you use the 5/4/3/2/1 progression with one Big Three Lift each workout. The rest of the session is assistance work with much lighter weight and higher volume.

TS, if it's working for you, keep running it. End of.

I've read the article you're talking about. It was rest/pause type of training and used the same weight across all 5 sets. This isn't want the op is describing.

 

[numberthirtytwo]

its not that much different than 5/3/1 or similar types of things working up to a heavy single. but because it doesnt have a name it's obviously a terrible program (sarcasm).

if it works for you keep at it, theres nothing terrible there except you might want to think more about long-term periodization

 

[MatterOverMind]

but because it doesnt have a name it's obviously a terrible program (sarcasm).

That's not why it's terrible. I could care less about that. In fact, I haven't used a program in since before I joined Sherdog. That program is nothing like 5/3/1.

His program sucks because a quick stallout is almost guaranteed and almost everybody will benefit from more volume on bench than just a heavy single once or twice a week.

Was I not clear about that?

I'm not trying to be a dick, so please excuse me if I don't sugar-coat my answers.

I've been around long enough to know what has and hasn't worked for A LOT of people. And for the vast majority of people, his program is a long way from ideal.

 

[lionsden2009]

That's not why it's terrible. I could care less about that. In fact, I haven't used a program in since before I joined Sherdog. That program is nothing like 5/3/1.

His program sucks because a quick stallout is almost guaranteed and almost everybody will benefit from more volume on bench than just a heavy single once or twice a week.

Was I not clear about that?

I'm not trying to be a dick, so please excuse me if I don't sugar-coat my answers.

I've been around long enough to know what has and hasn't worked for A LOT of people. And for the vast majority of people, his program is a long way from ideal.

A lot of people are against high volume benching from what I've seen. and I still change it up like I said (3x5 and 8/4/2 are done every other week for a day that week).

I really don't see too much of a difference between that and 5/3/1. I got it from my varsity football coach because that what we used in the weightroom. Just wanted to see if it was effective. Sorry that I haven't been around as long as you lol. but even you said you dont use a program so how would you know? (or maybe I misunderstood, if so, what do you do)

 

[KnightTemplar]

A lot of people are against high volume benching from what I've seen. and I still change it up like I said (3x5 and 8/4/2 are done every other week for a day that week).

I really don't see too much of a difference between that and 5/3/1. I got it from my varsity football coach because that what we used in the weightroom. Just wanted to see if it was effective. Sorry that I haven't been around as long as you lol. but even you said you dont use a program so how would you know? (or maybe I misunderstood, if so, what do you do)

As I've already stated, if it works for TS, he should keep doing it. But the 5/4/3/2/1 rep range is nothing like the 5/3/1. Wendler rotates the weeks, so you are not Lifting heavy every week. Even the 5/3/1 for Powerlifting only has Singles two weeks out of four. In the original 5/3/1, you never go for Singles; you always try to add reps on the last set(apart from Deload Week).

I've used both systems; I used the 5/4/3/2/1 before I joined Sherdog. It did increase my 1RM very quickly, but the progression could not be sustained(at least not by me)for any length of time. After stalling I ran SS, then finally switched to 5/3/1. That was almost six months ago and I'm still making slow but steady progress on 5/3/1.

 

[MatterOverMind]

A lot of people are against high volume benching from what I've seen. and I still change it up like I said (3x5 and 8/4/2 are done every other week for a day that week).

I really don't see too much of a difference between that and 5/3/1. I got it from my varsity football coach because that what we used in the weightroom. Just wanted to see if it was effective. Sorry that I haven't been around as long as you lol. but even you said you dont use a program so how would you know? (or maybe I misunderstood, if so, what do you do)

Being "against" high volume benching will still usually involve more than just one heavy single. Multiple singles, doubles, and even triples (depending on number of sets) aren't "high volume".

This is different than 5/3/1 in that 5/3/1 has you working up to a heavy single only once every fourth workout, and even then you're likely to hit the prescribed weight for more than one rep.

I'm not trying to put you down for being less experienced than me. I'm not special in any way. I'm just trying to share what I've learned in order to help make your path easier.

I don't use a program, but I've trained at many different volumes and intensities. I realize that what works best for me wont' necessarily work best for others, but like I said, I've religiously read the logs of countless people over the last several years, giving me a pretty good idea of what will generally work well for people.

 

[JauntyAngle]

so basically, 5x5 is the end all-be all on the strength and conditioning forums of sherdog?

Strictly speaking, 5x5 isn't even a programme- it's a set and rep scheme. It becomes a programme once you have a system for adding weight and possibly for breaking up the progression in some way so you can recover.

It's striking that many so-called '5x5' programmes are not quite as simple as the name sounds. The beginners' Bill Starr 5x5 that I am aware of alternates ramping sets and sets across, so that the ramping sets go up to a higher weight than the sets across. The intermediate version has all ramping sets, a recovery day in the middle of the week where you only actually do 4, and on Friday a heavy triple at 2.5% heavier weight for your fifth ramping set, which is then your weight for the final ramped set the following Monday (and then also a much lighter set of 8).

Anyway, as for 'be-all and end-all' on Sherdog... I would guess the three most popular programmes here are Starting Strength (3x5 Linear Progression), Texas Method (5x5 sets across on Monday,light sets of 4 on Wednesday (I think) and heavy singles, doubles or triples on Friday) and 5/3/1. So the so-called 'be-all and end-all' of Sherdog isn't even that popular on Sherdog!

 

[callador]

Your coach might have pulled the 5-4-3-2-1 from the Bigger, Faster, Stronger routine. When I was in college many moons ago, this was THE program! The football coach had all the guys doing it. I don't know if it has changed much, but I guess they liked it. It had a lot of things that current routines have. Squat/Box Squat, DL/Trap bar DL, Bench/Towel Bench, and Powercleans. I think it went 5x5 one week, then 3x3, 5-4-3-2-1, and last but not least... 10,8,6. So if you like that sort of thing, maybe check that program out?

They had some speed and plyo stuff in there as well, but I only ever saw the guys doing the strength portion.

 

[guilineseguy]

No.


Fine. You seem to like your "routine" and it's working for you, so keep doing it. But how long do you expect to be able to keep adding weight before you stall out?

Why ask for an opinion/advice if you don't want hear it?

But this is my question about it. Because before I was basically working up to a 1 rep max also and stalled everywhere.My question is......Why do you stall? I would think the body would get used to the weight, and become stronger therefore being able to lift more. But it seems to work the exact opposite. Can someone try to explain this?

I have seen everyone saying not to do it, just never a clear explaination why.

 

[Tosa]

But this is my question about it. Because before I was basically working up to a 1 rep max also and stalled everywhere.My question is......Why do you stall? I would think the body would get used to the weight, and become stronger therefore being able to lift more. But it seems to work the exact opposite. Can someone try to explain this?

I have seen everyone saying not to do it, just never a clear explaination why.

In this particular case:

1) Maxing out is good for testing, not training. It's not the right amount of heavy singles, which balances enough to stimulate adaptation, without doing too much.

2) Maxing out and heavy singles fatigue the CNS, especially if it's a true max, and not a training max. This can lead to overtraining quick. Even when heavy singles are used, they'll often be less frequent, or the lift is varied.

 

[guilineseguy]

Thanks Tosa. Like I had mentioned before. i was basically doing that before, and I also stalled out, and was baffled as to why. Now i am on a better schedule, lifting lighhter, but more volume. And it seems to be working MUCH better.