interesting breakdown of the economy

[IGIT]

If losing 0ver 50,000 factories is a half truth, it is still a problem that has had enormous effects on the average Americans life. So that seems to be a difference without meaning.

heya VivaRevolution,

i'd be curious, though, what percentage of those losses were due to automation and the Great Recession, is all.

i agree that the loss of manufacturing jobs has had a serious effect on the lives of many Americans.

- IGIT

 

[VivaRevolution]

heya VivaRevolution,

i'd be curious, though, what percentage of those losses were due to automation and the Great Recession, is all.

- IGIT

I wouldn't because their is no way of measuring it. It would amount to muddying the waters.

Now on the other hand if we wanted to have a conversation about how to mitigate the effects of automation, or to prevent the next great recession, i could see value in that.

 

[IGIT]

I wouldn't because their is no way of measuring it. It would amount to muddying the waters.

Now on the other hand if we wanted to have a conversation about how to mitigate the effects of automation, or to prevent the next great recession, i could see value in that.

hi Viva,

i'm heading out for now, but i don't think it would be muddying the waters. saying that free trade has caused these losses definitely clarifies things if one would to make that a declarative blanket statement - i just don't think it would be accurate, though.

- IGIT

 

[VivaRevolution]

hi Viva,

i'm heading out for now, but i don't think it would be muddying the waters. saying that free trade has caused these losses, though, clarifies things if one would to make that a declarative blanket statement - i just don't think it would be accurate, though.

- IGIT

If you can explain to me how we accurately measure job losses from automation, or the recession, I can see value to the discussion.

But if we can't, it is in fact muddying the waters. It is saying we don't know if those factories left due to NAFTA, GATT, automation, or the GFC. I mean if we can't even define if their is a problem, then how can we ever solve it.

It is the definition of muddying waters, if it can't be shown in a concrete manor, how many jobs were lost to what.

 

[Deleted member 159002]

People are quick to say "things would be more expensive." But people would have more money too since not only will there be more manufacturing jobs, those people would have more money to spend throughout the economy

That's an interesting point. However, I'm not sure the extra money that non-manufacting workers would be paying for consumer goods would find their way back into their wallets in the form of higher pay.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Maybe. I wish the IRS was even more understaffed. That modality to help the less well off is still the most inefficient and wasteful way to do it. That's leaving aside the obvious problem of it being also a completely unethical way of doing it (which we don't need address if you don't want to).

Is wealth distribution an issue in America to you and if so how do you want to address it?

 

[Greoric]

Is wealth distribution an issue in America to you and if so how do you want to address it?

Yes, by stopping monetary policy that's upward redistributionist. Its undeniable now that the loose money we've had especially since the GFC has created massive gains for the people at the very top of the wealth latter which can ride the curve of money creation to enrich themselves.

That actually reminds me that I've read your advocacy for the UBI, but that's completely unnecessary if you have sound money that's gaining in purchasing power over time.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Yes, by stopping monetary policy that's upward redistributionist. Its undeniable now that the loose money we've had especially since the GFC has created massive gains for the people at the very top of the wealth latter which can ride the curve of money creation to enrich themselves.

That actually reminds me that I've read your advocacy for the UBI, but that's completely unnecessary if you have sound money that's gaining in purchasing power over time.

So shrink up the supply of credit and that spreads the wealth?

Would UBI be necessary if every job was done by machines? If so, would it be necessary even sooner than that? If so, how soon?

 

[Greoric]

So shrink up the supply of credit and that spreads the wealth?

Would UBI be necessary if every job was done by machines? If so, would it be necessary even sooner than that? If so, how soon?

Rather than expand the issuance of credit past the capital stock that could support it? Absolutely.

Also, when would every job be handled by machines? The only limitation to the labor force is the imagination of people to come up with solutions to problems for goods and services people want. If indeed machines were able to take care of all of that... then what's the problem?

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Rather than expand the issuance of credit past the capital stock that could support it? Absolutely.

Also, when would every job be handled by machines? The only limitation to the labor force is the imagination of people to come up with solutions to problems for goods and services people want. If indeed machines were able to take care of all of that... then what's the problem?

Seems counter-intuitive when credit is what drives the economy.

The problem would be how to allocate resources to people when there's no way for most of them to meaningfully contribute to the production of goods and services. I admit, this is a little bit of a thought exercise and I don't see this situation on the horizon. But the emergence of 3-D printing will change things dramatically in my opinion.

 

[Greoric]

Seems counter-intuitive when credit is what drives the economy.

The problem would be how to allocate resources to people when there's no way for most of them to meaningfully contribute to the production of goods and services. I admit, this is a little bit of a thought exercise and I don't see this situation on the horizon. But the emergence of 3-D printing will change things dramatically in my opinion.

Sure, credit, as in the capital stock that credit represents (i.e. savings), drives growth. As does extending lines of credit (i.e. loans). That doesn't also mean there isn't a production possibilities frontier. It's no secret what happens when you attempt to extend lines of credit past what savings in the market will allow.... we went through that consequence eight years ago with a credit crisis.

As to the second part, the allocation of those resources is even less of problem in the kind of situation we're describing. There's more resources going around, even less inhibition for people to just give those resources away, and consequentially less need for people to even work. That's especially true if you have a medium of exchange that holds its value while the gulf of goods and resources it can purchase expands.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Sure, credit, as in the capital stock that credit represents (i.e. savings), drives growth. As does extending lines of credit (i.e. loans). That doesn't also mean there isn't a production possibilities frontier. It's no secret what happens when you attempt to extend lines of credit past what savings in the market will allow.... we went through that consequence eight years ago with a credit crisis.

As to the second part, the allocation of those resources is even less of problem in the kind of situation we're describing. There's more resources going around, even less inhibition for people to just give those resources away, and consequentially less need for people to even work. That's especially true if you have a medium of exchange that holds its value while the gulf of goods and resources it can purchase expands.

You lost me with production possibilities frontier. And the problem with the GFC was credit drying up, not too much of it.

Unless the goods and services in the future are limitless, won't they still need allocated? Not sure how that's going to work. Let's take housing for example. What if everyone wants to live in the same spot?

 

[Greoric]

You lost me with production possibilities frontier. And the problem with the GFC was credit drying up, not too much of it.

Unless the goods and services in the future are limitless, won't they still need allocated? Not sure how that's going to work. Let's take housing for example. What if everyone wants to live in the same spot?

The PPF is just the limitation the current stock of resources in a market that can be used for productive activities. We'd both agree that any given amount of resources has a limitation, no matter how efficiently allocated, to what its able to produce, right?

To your point about credit drying up, I agree, but that's not an artificial constraint. Financial institutions were lending out amounts of credit that couldn't be justified by the savings or the productive capacities of the people taking on those loans to repay them.

I'm going out on a limb here, and considering our past debates on the topic, I'm sensing that you don't appreciate a currency's connection to the real resources an economy actually distributes?

Also if everyone wants to live in the same place, then yes the price rises, which inevitably and rightfully excludes everyone from trying to access that scarcity.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

The PPF is just the limitation the current stock of resources in a market that can be used for productive activities. We'd both agree that any given amount of resources has a limitation, no matter how efficiently allocated, to what its able to produce, right?

To your point about credit drying up, I agree, but that's not an artificial constraint. Financial institutions were lending out amounts of credit that couldn't be justified by the savings or the productive capacities of the people taking on those loans to repay them.

I'm going out on a limb here, and considering our past debates on the topic, I'm sensing that you don't appreciate a currency's connection to the real resources an economy actually distributes?

Also if everyone wants to live in the same place, then yes the price rises, which inevitably and rightfully excludes everyone from trying to access that scarcity.

This is getting a bit abstract for me so I'm going to have to tap out to you, brother.

I'm sure we do have different levels of appreciation on that connection and I'd attribute it to you believing in gold-standard principles that may not necessarily apply and me embracing the upside of fiat currency.

 

[Greoric]

This is getting a bit abstract for me so I'm going to have to tap out to you, brother.

I'm sure we do have different levels of appreciation on that connection and I'd attribute it to you believing in gold-standard principles that may not necessarily apply and me embracing the upside of fiat currency.

Rog. See you in the other threads.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

Mostly processed, unhealthy foods that will cause us health problems, and clothing made in sweat-shops by poor little kids who are miserable, malnourished, and trapped in perpetual slavery.

Amirite?

And we can do an extreme form of protectionist like going into tropical third world country and exploit them for our own good, and not let anyone else in. Basically we can do an almost colonial style foreign trade. Then only Muricans can go over there to set up shop.

 

[RockstarChris]

Most of what people consider necessities today would be much more expensive and most luxuries would be completely of reach.

My sister is dead broke and living with my parents but only buys organic sodium free vegan food and shit. She goes to this place called Whole Paycheck and spends $200 on a weeks worth of food.

I just pull out a pack of ramen and im good.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

My sister is dead broke and living with my parents but only buys organic sodium free vegan food and shit. She goes to this place called Whole Paycheck and spends $200 on a weeks worth of food.

I just pull out a pack of ramen and im good.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/percent...h-their-parents-is-40-percent-a-75-year-high/

Almost 40 percent of young adults lived with their parents, step-parents, grandparents and other relatives last year, or the highest point in 75 years, according to data from real estate analytics company Trulia. The only time in U.S. history when the share has been higher was in 1940, when the U.S. economy was regaining its footing from the Great Depression and the year prior to the country’s entry into World War II.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/percent...h-their-parents-is-40-percent-a-75-year-high/

So everyone has jobs but they dont pay enough to move out?

 

[MadSquabbles500]

everyone at my company, for example, would be forced to use Kodak digital cameras (which would be awful), instead of the Canons and Nikons we use. Kodak would be insulated from foreign competition and have a captive market here in the United States if the US went full protectionist to save their ailing industries.

wouldn't that be a bad thing?

- IGIT

Unless someone starts making better cameras here.