Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by devante, Oct 27, 2010.
FIGHTHYPE \\ IS BOXING "THE NEXT BIG THING" IN MMA?
a lil biased but very true
The truth is unbiased... and that, my friend, was the truth.
Boxing is the most evolved combat sport in the world. To skip over it's complexities will only set you up for a fall.
The writer seems a little uneducated on the styles of some of the UFC champs. Anderson Silva is not a grappler, so why would he bring up the fact that he chooses to stand as opposed to grapple? He's a striker who developed his grappler, not a grappler who developed his striking. And BJ didn't look for the takedown in their first fight at all, he was primarily a counter fighter, that was his major problem. He DOES know how to throw counters, Edgar was just better at avoiding than he was at throwing.
I can summarise the article in one short sentence:
Boxing 'tools' are an essential part of MMA that have been neglected.
So why does the author think that long distance running is going to help someone not "punch themselves out"?
I think it's been agreed upon at this point by fight trainers that long distance jogging at a regular pace doesn't translate to the ring. If you want to make sure you can throw lots of punches for several rounds...you need to throw a lot of punches over the course of several rounds and repeat that process over-and-over again.
Outside of that, I agree that if you're going to stand and duke it out with the hands, the best thing to do is to learn to box using at the very least the fundamentals.
Vankuen, do your fighters do road work (running)?
All the boxers I know do road work (might be a purely
boxing coach thing though) especially when prepping
for a fight.
isnt it only roadwork when ur running and throwing punches/etc, otherwise its just running; my understanding of the secret of roadwork is long dist running while punching/etc which preps you for throwing punches over the 4-12 rounds most levels of fighters fight.(beginnerhigh level pro)
My guys run...but they do it on their own time. I run, but I don't make it a priority in my training. It's "long duration-low output" and in the fight that does come into play during the lulls or between the attacking, defending, and vying for position, in addition to overall fitness.
However it doesn't translate to being able to punch for long periods continuously. Punching over and over again needs to be done---in order to be able to punch over and over again.
In short--the act itself is the best prep for any given activity, IMO. You want to be able to bang for 5 x 3? Then bang on the thai pads or bag nonstop as hard as you can for 5 x 3.
In general...with what muay thai / MMA / wrestlers do is produce a high output for short durations over and over again. Therefore if roadwork is going to mimick that...best to do intervals going from a slow jog to a sprint to a slow jog to a sprint. That will help condition the ENERGY SYSTEM...not the ability to punch long periods.
In terms of the Carwin comment in the article, you guys are missing the point. The point isn't specifically that Carwin needs to do road work; the point was boxing training forces its athletes to be able to punch(box) for more than 5 minutes.
It isn't about running , its about the conditioning nature of boxing training.
all due respect, but read the "how to finally solve your conditioning problem..." by EZA in the strength and conditioning forum. long distance roadwork definitely helps in MMA. just to get you started, search for cardiac output and eccentric/concentric adaptations in the thread i mentioned above.
Misunderstanding...I'm not saying it doesn't help in general...I'm saying it doesn't help to not "punch yourself out".
I know guys that can run marathons, but tire out after punching hard for 30 seconds. If running helped that directly...then they should be able to punch for 12 rounds no problem.
EDIT: However reading that thread you showed me indicates that the likely culprit is because the guys ARMS tired out...as opposed to his lungs. Good read and thanks for the heads up!
Long distance running definitely translates to the ring. It increases the volume of the chambers of your heart thus, you are able to pump more blood to your tiring muscles.
Guys punching themselves out who can run marathons were probably training for marathons and not how to punch efficiently.
The general prescription for a combat athlete is one long distance run, one short run with a lot of hills and one session of sprint work a week. Neglecting one area is going to show in the ring/cage.
In contrast, all anaerobic training increases the thickness of the chamber walls of your heart making the volume of blood that is being pumped out decrease. Sprint all you want and lift the most weight you possibly can, you are still going to gas if you can't get enough oxygen to your muscles. Eg. Shane Carwin.
How many professional boxing champions do you know that punch themselves out in the first round?
Yes yes Arch....we all read the same thread you obviously did.
Well then, if you did read it, you would know that I was the one who posted that same information in that thread too.:icon_chee
I guess that it didn't sink in then!?
lol at "NEXT BIG THING!?!?!?!?"
All combat sports should be relevant in mma by now. Especially Boxing, which is old as dirt.
If you make standup your primary game you need to learn every tool you're permitted to use. Oppurtunities arise for different strikes, and these fighters refuse to use anything but their hands. That's like a BJJ guy passing up an armbar because he mainly trains chokes.
Covering up, tucking tale, and turning your back has nothing to do with "refusing to use anything but their hands." It does have a lot to do with not having a simple grasp over boxing basics (or even striking basics if you want to broaden the scope) that training in boxing would cover in spades.
I think a lot of people are nitpicking a lot of non-consequential stuff within the article while ignoring the grand gist of it. I think thirteen said it best:
In that end, it's a often touted truth that is becoming more and more apparent no matter how much "that won't work in MMA" apologetic theology is spouted by the so-called "knowledgeable" every day.
boxing is not the main art in mma. if a boxer, wrestler faces a muay thai, bjj practition the second guy will win. so by no means is boxing "the next big thing in mma". boxers might ahve the best punches, but wont know any kicks and will not be used to defending kicks and talking legs shots.
Wasn't talking about Brock, but thanks for sharing. I was talking about guys like Schaub or Dos Santos. Standup fighters should utilize all aspects of striking, not just boxing. As important boxing is, its just as important to learn the other tools of striking available to you.
Good article. Made sure to watch its P's and Q's and not get carried away with the importance of boxing in MMA, and yet....
I do think it's pretty easy to chop down the striking in MMA as so amateurish, largely neglecting the fact that this is related to the importance of grappling and takedowns in MMA. A cursory look at the minor leagues in MMA will show that good grappling wins the day; so, so that's the hurdle for fighters to overcome in order to make it to the big show.
As the grappling reaches a fairly high level in the big show, THEN the striking becomes a bigger factor. For this reason, MMA striking will always be at a fairly low level. I believe naturally talented guys like Penn or Anderson may pop up and dominate with their striking, but that kind of ability will never become the norm. And while people might example Edgar, I think three things that really helped his success are overlooked, and they didn't come from training but ability, IMO: speed, endurance, and chin. The guy is fast, never tires, and was countered but never phased. This played a big hand in outboxing the Prodigy. Oh, and always threating to slam him to the mat.
Again, a good article...but like most of the "boxing in MMA" rants it does seem to take a simple view of things. MMA has a lot depth, despite the crudeness of some aspects. A guy inclined to enjoy boxing might see Serra/GSP I as an incapable champion succumbing to a nobody because he didn't have good boxing....but the knowledgeable MMA guy knows this was only possible because the champ was overly preoccupied by Serra's grappling and jiu-jitsu, and sure that's all Serra would be looking for. Most boxing people don't understand that grappling is always a massive factor in the fight, even when it's not on display. To echo it one more time: Cain NEVER would have been able to do what he did to Brock if he didn't extensively work his ability to pop up from the bottom, which flustered the champ. So did Cain's striking win him the fight, or his grappling? If you ask me, Brock is just chinny and too bulky to strike, and the outcome would have been the same regardless of the time he put into working his hands. I'm not saying he couldn't have done better--certainly he could, but standing with Cain would always have the same outcome. The fight came down to who won the grappling battle FIRST.
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