Interesting Aikido Documentary

[Shemhazai]

From the 'Samurai Spirit' series, a Fight Quest-like concept hosted by K-1 fighter Nicholas Pettas. (I found this after watching the episode on sumo in the sumo thread.)

YouTube - Aikido/

The subsequent parts are found by clicking the top link on the screen at the end of each clip.

I'm not quite sure what to make of all of the things seen in this documentary, but it does seem that very skilled aikido practitioners are able to apply a lot of techniques to resisting, even trained attackers. However, it doesn't seem very practical, and my guess is that you have to devote a lifetime of study to achieve even a modicum of success. Still, an interesting glimpse of some of the principles that can make high level aikido work.

 

[bjornvil]

Interesting... Aikido does look effective against an attacker, even a trained one. But like so many have said before, it doesn't look like it has much use in MMA or combat sports in general.

I really like how they are able to move around the attacker and use their momentum against them. It must take a lot of practice to have these reflexes and movements down.

 

[JerkWeed]

Machida uses some of the same principles in his Karate and it is surprising how easily he takes down some very accomplished grapplers. It will be interesting to see if anyone adapts Aikido to MMA the way he has adapted Karate.

My guess is that in addition to the time it would take to master, Aikido does not attract the same level of athlete as the more combative martial arts. An elderly philosopher is not going to dominate MMA the way he is allowed to dominate his dojo.

It is one thing to dominate your opponent when you tell him how to attack you. It would have been another thing for Pettas to come at any of those guys with bad intentions. e.g. At the end he wasn't attempting to set up a successful kick to smash the guy in the head, he was kicking specifically to see what a good Aikido response is.

 

[bjornvil]

It is one thing to dominate your opponent when you tell him how to attack you. It would have been another thing for Pettas to come at any of those guys with bad intentions. e.g. At the end he wasn't attempting to set up a successful kick to smash the guy in the head, he was kicking specifically to see what a good Aikido response is.

Sure, but if you look at the techniques used, I can't really doubt that they would work against someone who was intending to hurt you. But OBVIOUSLY it all depends on the reflexes and timing of the Aikidoka! If someone with bad intentions would take a swing at the old guy and pop him in the side of his head, it would probably not end well for the Aikidoka, but if the Aikidoka was anticipating the attack and would be able to perform his thing, it would be all over soon for the attacker.

Don't you agree?

I would just like to point out that I train BJJ and I am just as sceptic towards TMA's such as Aikido as many others in here. But looking at Aikido without judging beforehand I just can't say that it wouldn't work for what it is intended to work against.

 

[chino3]

oh give me a fucking break... this isnt serious is it? The fighter and MA specialist "fight scene" in the park was just as choreographed as any jackie chan movie.

 

[GingerNinja]

oh give me a fucking break... this isnt serious is it? The fighter and MA specialist "fight scene" in the park was just as choreographed as any jackie chan movie.

so was the BJJ in lethal weapon but people still get a hard on for Mel Gibsons Triangle

YES the techniques work against a resisting opponent, hence why police forces world wide use them for restraining purposes.
NO it isn't perfectly suited to 1v1 cage fighting the way BJJ is..
YES some techniques could be used effectively. Machida did one perfectly, even Overeem did something similar against Rogers (find that gif of the throw away.. not exactly Aikido, but the principle is there)

but I'm just repeating what i say in every Aikido thread.. If you see a Hakama be wary of what you are watching, otherwise its fine. Randori No kata works against resisting opponents and is used in competition in Shodokan (TOMIKI) style Aikidio.. the only style with active sparring and competition. Tomiki was also a high level Judoka trained under Kano as well as Ueshiba.. and combined many elements of the 2 arts.

Want any more info... L2 Research and stop letting youtube clips and people who trained in the philosophical styles make your judgements for you.

 

[Shemhazai]

oh give me a fucking break... this isnt serious is it? The fighter and MA specialist "fight scene" in the park was just as choreographed as any jackie chan movie.

I agree. However, when they're explaining and demonstrating some of the concepts, it seems as if there is really a deep understanding of leverage - and timing - at work. Little things you really don't understand when watching demos.

That being said, all of the students seemed pretty useless, a lot of the "grab my wrist" examples were totally redundant, and like others in this thread, I have considerable doubts as to the efficacy of pure aikido against a (kick)boxer throwing actual combos. Especially when these guys never actually train with someone who knows how to throw a punch - much less several punches. Still, I get the impression that aikido has certain things to offer on a conceptual level - if you can just see past all the bullshit that comes with it. And put in the considerable amount of time it seems would be required in order to be able to apply it effectively.

 

[GingerNinja]

That being said, all of the students seemed pretty useless, a lot of the "grab my wrist" examples were totally redundant

As far as i can figure the reason there is so much of that, is because it is so visually distinct of the art, despite the fact there's a whole range of techniques based around the head and body which are in my experience (ie being landed on my head lots and often) much more effective.

 

[nefti]

how do you explain the vidoes of O sensei shooting chi balls at his students.

 

[ShindoNinja]

I like Aikido and even I am sick of these posts.

I've trained in Aikido, Judo and BJJ. Also striking arts like Karate, Gung fu and MT... I'm a firm believer that all arts bring something valuable to the table. However, certain arts make you more combat effective sooner. BJJ and Judo are at the top of that list, Aikido is right near the bottom... next to TKD.

ALso, Judo, BJJ and Aikido actually share a common ancestor as their "parent" art. They are are facets of a hard style of Japanese JJ. They concentrate on different ranges of combat and can be used effectively together. Aikido is right before a confrontation, the moment of joining with your opponent. Judo happens after you get tangled up and BJJ once thing have gone to the ground.

THat video was bogus, those guys were not trying to really attack that Aikido master.

 

[Ybot]

I also want to point out that the instructor used in the examples is not the run of the mill Aikidoka that we see in every town teaching Aikido. Doesn't look like the big circular Aikido we all know and love to make fun of. This is Shotokan Aikido which is unique among Aikido styles, and maybe GingerNinja could explain what I mean?

I have always been fascinated with Aikido, and 10 years ago when I was deciding which martial art I was going to switch to from Karate it was between Aikido and BJJ... and I'm very happy with my choice, but I still have a fascination with Aikido that I can't shake. I believe, by and large, the way most people train Aikido, it is of limited value in any fighting sense (which is okay, because not everyone trains martial arts for fighting, especially when it comes to Aikido), but I believe that there is something real there, even if there is a lot of fake too.

The longer I train BJJ the more I see how the the subtle differences in technique can multiply that techniques effectiveness. I think Aikido focuses on those subtleties.

It took me 10 years to begin to really feel those subtleties in some of my guard sweeps. Now imagine that your whole technique relies on that subtlety only... now you have a martial art that is useless for 10 years. On top of that, you only train scenario drills with unresisting (often compliant) partners. No "Aliveness" at all. That's Aikido (in general IMHO).

 

[GingerNinja]

I also want to point out that the instructor used in the examples is not the run of the mill Aikidoka that we see in every town teaching Aikido. Doesn't look like the big circular Aikido we all know and love to make fun of. This is Shotokan Aikido which is unique among Aikido styles, and maybe GingerNinja could explain what I mean?

just call me out why don't you I'm only a 4th Kyu! lol.

All styles come from the same basis but they apply the techniques differently, positioning is different etc and the fact we do have competition means we see immediately when something is off . I start winging my arms around on defence and I'm going to get struck in the chest and lose points. Big flashy techniques do look good, but against someone who's trying to resist you don't have time to do any of that. The arm and wrist techniques do work, and will see them in comp, but most often its techniques done to the head and body which score. Shodokan / Tomiki distills a lot of the crap down to whats effective, for comp, self defence and control. Some overlap, some don't. but you won't hear us discussing Ki energy while having someone is trying to slam you head first into the mats.

watch the randori no kata.. sure its only the kata versions of the moves and not the tournament styles.. but they are the ones that are effective when adapted.. all of them. I have had plenty done on me in comp.. and even my last grading I took a hellish sumi otoshi infront of my examiners and all i could do was laugh. at 6ft 3, without a lot of weight, i tend to fly and splat the ground at ridiculous speeds.

YouTube - Sumi Otoshi Shiai clip

not me, but a decent clip of it being done in comp.

 

[nefti]

is half compliance one of the rules of the tourney?

 

[GingerNinja]

is half compliance one of the rules of the tourney?

not in any tourney I've been in. but tourneys have rules.. just like in BJJ you can't punch your opponent you know? they are competing under set rules. but no, if theres half compliance then they're not actually trying to win are they.......

 

[Waldorf]

I believe the style being shown is Yoshinkan, found post war by a studen of M. Ueshiba, name Gozo Shioda. As far as Aikido goes, it was known as a "hard style". Its the style taught to the Tokyo Riot Police. I've never seen it live or trained with someone who practiced it, but from what I've seen it is practiced more staically then regular Aikido, but with more empahsis on body mechanics and power generation. I think overall the techniques and methodolgies across most Aikido that I've seen.

An intersting book was written by an English writer, Robert Twiger (I think) who became a full time student and entered the riot police program (I think it runs along with an instructor training program). I think the name is "Angry White Pajamas". He gives the impression he is not the most physical speicmen going into the class, and he comes of as being one of the class slackers, but does finish the program and I think he gets either his black belt or brown belt. His conclusion was it really didn't teach him to be a world beater, but made him good at taking a beating, developing mental tougness. Towards the end of the book, on a retreat, an intructor teaches bjj he learned. Fan of Aikido or not, I think it is an intresting story a long the lines of a travel memoir.

 

[nefti]

not in any tourney I've been in. but tourneys have rules.. just like in BJJ you can't punch your opponent you know? they are competing under set rules. but no, if theres half compliance then they're not actually trying to win are they.......

see that argument doesn't even make sense, in that video it looks like the guy is not even resisting fully. How you compare that to punching in a grappling tournament is beyond me. WTF?

 

[GingerNinja]

see that argument doesn't even make sense, in that video it looks like the guy is not even resisting fully. How you compare that to punching in a grappling tournament is beyond me. WTF?

If he is then its his own fault and clearly he doesn't want to win. Your having a go at the rules trying to be clever. Its a competition, and you know.. people try to win? so why the hell would they half resist anything? and I thought i'd throw that in there just incase you meant he wasn't actually trying to break his nose with the strikes or anything. There are rules to follow, but you resist being thrown the best you can. Otherwise why bother.

 

[GingerNinja]

An intersting book was written by an English writer, Robert Twiger (I think) who became a full time student and entered the riot police program (I think it runs along with an instructor training program). I think the name is "Angry White Pajamas". He gives the impression he is not the most physical speicmen going into the class, and he comes of as being one of the class slackers, but does finish the program and I think he gets either his black belt or brown belt. His conclusion was it really didn't teach him to be a world beater, but made him good at taking a beating, developing mental tougness. Towards the end of the book, on a retreat, an intructor teaches bjj he learned. Fan of Aikido or not, I think it is an intresting story a long the lines of a travel memoir.

Yh its a good read, got it for my birthday. I'd have sacked that off a couple weeks in to be honest, some of it sounded more like torture than training.

 

[FreeFocus]

Also, Judo, BJJ and Aikido actually share a common ancestor as their "parent" art. They are are facets of a hard style of Japanese JJ. They concentrate on different ranges of combat and can be used effectively together. Aikido is right before a confrontation, the moment of joining with your opponent. Judo happens after you get tangled up and BJJ once thing have gone to the ground.

That's pretty insightful, I didn't know that aikido was a directly related art. The bold is a good way of looking at it too.

I haven't trained in aikido, but it seems like an interesting art. I'm not sure how effective it is, but for aikido to evolve and become more practical, I think it needs to not be so insular. It needs to acknowledge real-life situations and address them. Of course, it might not be able to address these situations because of inherent deficiencies it might have.

 

[nefti]

If he is then its his own fault and clearly he doesn't want to win. Your having a go at the rules trying to be clever. Its a competition, and you know.. people try to win? so why the hell would they half resist anything? and I thought i'd throw that in there just incase you meant he wasn't actually trying to break his nose with the strikes or anything. There are rules to follow, but you resist being thrown the best you can. Otherwise why bother.

then it's your fault for posting a shitty example of a video.