Economy Update2:Intel and others seek 37 billion in government aid to build advanced factories in US

[PEB]

Update:"

t's no secret the semiconductor industry is under pressure. Countless manufacturers are having trouble meeting the increased demands of the market at the moment. In a bid to rectify this, or at least get on the right path, the SIA (Semiconductor Industry Association) has constructed a compelling letter to newly inaugurated US President Biden, urging his hand on the matter.



“We believe bold action is needed to address the challenges we face. The costs of inaction are high.”

The SIA
The letter has been signed not only by Lisa Su of AMD, and Bob Swan Intel's current (soon to exit) CEO, but also executives and CEOs across Western Digital, IBM, Nvidia, Broadcom, and Qualcomm, among others.



CRN, in representing those listed above the SIA are requesting funding, through investments and initiatives, to help bolster the semiconductor manufacturing and research industry. This kind of funding was already given the okay as part of a defence bill passed in January 2021, outlined in the CHIPS for America Act. Apparently it needs a little push, however.





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A Chinese press release details future 5nm chip production including Intel GPU. It seems TSMC is the only one rolling out 5nm production.

This I think is a big deal because Intel used to pride itself as a chip manufacturer. It looks like its fight with AMD has caused them to rethink their strategy on advanced part manufacturing in house.

I wonder how the administration will handle this situation given the job market. The Chinese release also detailed a new Quelcomm Snapdragon and AMD RNDA chip.

The US may need to pump money into helping build new advanced chip manufacturing. Some of these factories cost 10's of billions of dollars. This is an area that AMD got out of and looks like Intel pulling out due to huge costs.

Taiwan has been pumping up billions to TSMC to give them a leadership position. Samsung and TSMC are big chip manufacturers at 7nm and Global Foundries seems to be less of a player. It seems likely that Samsung and TSMC will grow even more dominant given they share technology.




.

 

[original doom]

with recent events i will watch too see the outcome of this. how does moving advanced tech to taiwan stop it from sooner or later ending up in china ?

 

[PEB]

with recent events i will watch too see the outcome of this. how does moving advanced tech to taiwan stop it from sooner or later ending up in china ?

Taiwan does not have great relations with China an may stay that way? But things seem to be loosening an cooling off a little between them. Who knows that could change quickly but China has its hands full with COVID and Hong Kong.

 

[Fanu]

For anyone interested:

nm or nanometers stand for the pyhsical size of how small a transistor is made (transistors being one of the building blocks of CPUs)
A human hair is around 75 microns (abbreviated 75μm) or 75,000nm (nanometers) in diameter
We're building CPUs now at 7nm - cannot even be seen without the use of highly advanced microscopes
We are talking about building something that is only several atoms in diameter now

Taiwanese TSMC currently is the world leader in chip production - they have the worlds most advanced process node currently running (7nm, and 5nm starting from this year) - for comparison Intel is stuck with 14nm having only recently (as in this year) moved to 10nm for its CPUs (intel core i3/i5/i7 series)
South Koreas Samsung most advanced node is at 7nm (they promised 5nm starting from next year if I am not mistaken)

Intel has been stuck with its 14nm process 3-4 years longer then expected with constant delays and production issues preventing them from going to smaller nodes (on a large scale like TSMC does)

One point to note, that these node sizes cannot be directly compared (TSMC 10nm isnt same density as Intels 10nm - intel is slightly denser by all industry accounts, but still lags behind TSMCs 7nm)

Also another thing to note that, afaik, TSMC is using US made tools/machines in order to make 5/7nm chips and TSMC is building a factory in arizona:

https://www.anandtech.com/show/15803/tsmc-build-5nm-fab-in-arizona-for-2024

In a big shift to their manufacturing operations – and a big political win domestically – TSMC has announced that the company will be building a new, high-end fab in Arizona. The facility, set to come online in 2024, will utilize TSMC’s soon-to-be-deployed 5nm process, with the ability to handle 20,000 wafers a month. And with a final price tag on the facility expected to be $12 billion, this would make it one of the most expensive fabs ever built in the United States.

To be fair, this is more of a political move (TSMC not wanting to be under pressure from US administration for not having its advanced fabrication processes inside US - basically not wanting to suffer the same fate as Huawei) considering 5nm will be outdated by the time this factory comes online 2024
When I say outdated, I mean 5nm wont be in use to make most advanced CPU chips (and other components) - by then, TSMC will have moved on to 1/2/3nm

 

[jefferz]

Hey Peb, why don’t you tell everyone about how AMD handed over tech to China allowing them to catch up to America companies like Intel. We had at least a 40% performance lead in America on CPU processing power, but now they’re only on the single digits behind.
Or how Intel products are made in America by Americans from conflict free minerals. meanwhile AMD uses Global Foundries which they once owned, but sold to the Emirates of Abu Dhabi.
Let’s not forget, Intel has had record breaking quarters for over 2 years now.
They make a lot more than just CPU’s. Hint: your AMD motherboard has an Intel networking chip in it unless it’s a garbage board.

And let’s not forget Intel has Jim fucking Keller. AMD doesn’t have him anymore to fall back on when they stop releasing revisions.

 

[original doom]

Taiwan does not have great relations with China an may stay that way? But things seem to be loosening an cooling off a little between them. Who knows that could change quickly but China has its hands full with COVID and Hong Kong.

politically taiwan might have issues with china but what about the people or the guys in the factory, they are still chinese.

politicians should shut it down.

 

[PEB]

Hey Peb, why don’t you tell everyone about how AMD handed over tech to China allowing them to catch up to America companies like Intel. We had at least a 40% performance lead in America on CPU processing power, but now they’re only on the single digits behind.
Or how Intel products are made in America by Americans from conflict free minerals. meanwhile AMD uses Global Foundries which they once owned, but sold to the Emirates of Abu Dhabi.
Let’s not forget, Intel has had record breaking quarters for over 2 years now.
They make a lot more than just CPU’s. Hint: your AMD motherboard has an Intel networking chip in it unless it’s a garbage board.

Administrations let it happen.

 

[jefferz]

Administrations let it happen.

Triggered? Nah. Just pointing out some things.
For the past couple years you AMD fan girls have been saying this is the end for Intel, blah blah blah. But yet here we are with Intel having record quarters the whole time.
Here’s some info for you. If the financial year started on January 1rst, Intel on January 5th would have made more money than AMD does all year long.

 

[Fanu]

Hey Peb, why don’t you tell everyone about how AMD handed over tech to China allowing them to catch up to America companies like Intel. We had at least a 40% performance lead in America on CPU processing power, but now they’re only on the single digits behind.
Or how Intel products are made in America by Americans from conflict free minerals. meanwhile AMD uses Global Foundries which they once owned, but sold to the Emirates of Abu Dhabi.
Let’s not forget, Intel has had record breaking quarters for over 2 years now.
They make a lot more than just CPU’s. Hint: your AMD motherboard has an Intel networking chip in it unless it’s a garbage board.

And let’s not forget Intel has Jim fucking Keller. AMD doesn’t have him anymore to fall back on when they stop releasing revisions.

1) "AMD handed tech over to China"
Thats a one sided statement, read this for more info:
https://www.anandtech.com/show/15493/hygon-dhyana-reviewed-chinese-x86-cpus-amd

Part of this story covers that while there was clearly some money in it for AMD here, it didn’t fall foul of any Intel-AMD licensing agreements. And most importantly, it didn’t contravene any US laws regarding the export of high-performance computing intellectual property. This last point is important. The US government gives every CPU that comes out of Intel, AMD, and others, a value based on its performance.

AMD had contacted the DoD and DoC, as well as all others, and had been given the green light. The new microarchitecture was deemed of low enough performance to not hit any of the export bans. AMD was also given crystal clear confirmation that the ‘technology proposed was not restricted or otherwise prohibited from being transferred’, which is a rather stark statement.

So US Government approved of AMDs tech transfer to China (and China didn't get the latest tech).

China won't be catching up to TSMC/Intel or Samsung any time soon when it comes to bleeding tech

2) Intel did have a huge performance lead with its CPUs but its got no one to blame but itself for AMD recently taking the performance crown - AMD with its significantly lower budget managed to catch up with Intel on the engineering side because Intel has been using the same process nodes and CPU architecture since 2010 + Intel has refused to move on from 4 core i7 CPUs for years until AMD released their mainstream 8 core CPUs

3) AMD sold global foundries (and then IBM became their biggest customer and if I am not mistaken even owner at some point: On October 20, 2014, IBM announced the sale of its microelectronics business to GlobalFoundries) and hasn't been using them for some time now - all AMD chips are made by TSMC

4) AMD headquarters is in Santa Clara, California, U.S. - for all intents and purposes its a US company

5) Intel has had record profits because they do A LOT MORE stuff than make CPUs - they do a shitload of chip manufacturing as you already stated
Intel isnt going anywhere - they are here to stay even if AMD overtakes them in CPU profits

6) Jim Keller being at Intel now does not mean AMD is toast lol thats not how things work
Nor is Jim Keller the only bright engineer that knows CPU engineering
AMD with its zen architecture CPUs has a nice blueprint for making future CPUs - Keller thought about future CPUs and made his designs with AMD engineers accordingly, planning several generations of CPUs not just 1 or 2

Intel on the other hand has to revamp its architecture from zero and they have to get their CPU production line up to date which costs a lot of money and time - throwing more man power at the problem will do nothing

 

[MVelsor]

A Chinese press release

This is an area that AMD got out of and looks like Intel pulling out due to huge costs.

Nah.

In a big shift to their manufacturing operations – and a big political win domestically – TSMC has announced that the company will be building a new, high-end fab in Arizona.

It will quite literally be right down the street from InteI.



We'll Take It.

 

[MVelsor]

 

[jefferz]

1) "AMD handed tech over to China"
Thats a one sided statement, read this for more info:
https://www.anandtech.com/show/15493/hygon-dhyana-reviewed-chinese-x86-cpus-amd

Part of this story covers that while there was clearly some money in it for AMD here, it didn’t fall foul of any Intel-AMD licensing agreements. And most importantly, it didn’t contravene any US laws regarding the export of high-performance computing intellectual property. This last point is important. The US government gives every CPU that comes out of Intel, AMD, and others, a value based on its performance.

AMD had contacted the DoD and DoC, as well as all others, and had been given the green light. The new microarchitecture was deemed of low enough performance to not hit any of the export bans. AMD was also given crystal clear confirmation that the ‘technology proposed was not restricted or otherwise prohibited from being transferred’, which is a rather stark statement.

So US Government approved of AMDs tech transfer to China (and China didn't get the latest tech).

China won't be catching up to TSMC/Intel or Samsung any time soon when it comes to bleeding tech

2) Intel did have a huge performance lead with its CPUs but its got no one to blame but itself for AMD recently taking the performance crown - AMD with its significantly lower budget managed to catch up with Intel on the engineering side because Intel has been using the same process nodes and CPU architecture since 2010 + Intel has refused to move on from 4 core i7 CPUs for years until AMD released their mainstream 8 core CPUs

3) AMD sold global foundries (and then IBM became their biggest customer and if I am not mistaken even owner at some point: On October 20, 2014, IBM announced the sale of its microelectronics business to GlobalFoundries) and hasn't been using them for some time now - all AMD chips are made by TSMC

4) AMD headquarters is in Santa Clara, California, U.S. - for all intents and purposes its a US company

5) Intel has had record profits because they do A LOT MORE stuff than make CPUs - they do a shitload of chip manufacturing as you already stated
Intel isnt going anywhere - they are here to stay even if AMD overtakes them in CPU profits

6) Jim Keller being at Intel now does not mean AMD is toast lol thats not how things work
Nor is Jim Keller the only bright engineer that knows CPU engineering
AMD with its zen architecture CPUs has a nice blueprint for making future CPUs - Keller thought about future CPUs and made his designs with AMD engineers accordingly, planning several generations of CPUs not just 1 or 2

Intel on the other hand has to revamp its architecture from zero and they have to get their CPU production line up to date which costs a lot of money and time - throwing more man power at the problem will do nothing

Let me clear something up before we get into this. I'm not an Intel shill, I'm not anti AMD either. I'm anti AMD fan girl.


1. You know damn well as everyone else does, when you give China access to your stuff they steal it. Especially when the factory is in China.

2. Intel went a different direction, instead of just slamming on more corers they went for lower wattage. I'm not defending their decision to be clear.

3. Wrong. AMD 7nm are made my TSMC and they will be using GloFlo shortly. After the GloFlo vs TSMC lawsuit a couple years ago, TSMC is licensing it tech to GloFlo so they can make 7nm parts. They use GloFlo for a lot of their other stuff currently.

4. Yeah, their headquarters are in the US but the don't do anything in country. They may as well have their office in Delaware.

5. Even in the server market, Intel is still slaying it. AMD doesn't even have a double digit market share.

6. And what happens when AMD can't keep revising Kellers design and starts falling behind? We've already been through this, and it didn't go good for AMD. They didn't have a competitive chip for 7 years.


Intel fucked up when they tried to go from 14 to 10, they tried to implement too many new technologies and had problems with them. It isn't the physical die shrink that they're failing at.

 

[Fanu]

Let me clear something up before we get into this. I'm not an Intel shill, I'm not anti AMD either. I'm anti AMD fan girl.


1. You know damn well as everyone else does, when you give China access to your stuff they steal it. Especially when the factory is in China.

2. Intel went a different direction, instead of just slamming on more corers they went for lower wattage. I'm not defending their decision to be clear.

3. Wrong. AMD 7nm are made my TSMC and they will be using GloFlo shortly. After the GloFlo vs TSMC lawsuit a couple years ago, TSMC is licensing it tech to GloFlo so they can make 7nm parts. They use GloFlo for a lot of their other stuff currently.

4. Yeah, their headquarters are in the US but the don't do anything in country. They may as well have their office in Delaware.

5. Even in the server market, Intel is still slaying it. AMD doesn't even have a double digit market share.

6. And what happens when AMD can't keep revising Kellers design and starts falling behind? We've already been through this, and it didn't go good for AMD. They didn't have a competitive chip for 7 years.


Intel fucked up when they tried to go from 14 to 10, they tried to implement too many new technologies and had problems with them. It isn't the physical die shrink that they're failing at.

1. Everyone knows that yet still everyone still does business in China (Samsung, LG, Apple, Tesla, Intel, AMD, Nike, etc) and US government approved of the AMD/China licensing deal so its a moot point

2. Intel CPU power consumption has been increasing steadily over their entire lineup due to the use of aging 14nm process (and now "unrefined" 10nm process) and milking their 2012 skylake architecture for all its worth - we are now at a point that i9-10900K will require water cooling (a 360mm radiator to dissipate heat) for it to reach its advertised boost clocks - it's a 10 core CPU, that produces more heat than AMDs flagship 16 core 3950X CPU, while offering lower performance

Intel hasn't moved from their 4 core CPUs cause their profit margins and lack of competition gave them no reason to - now its biting them in the ass with AMD taking the performance lead in all but gaming (and if reports of this years AMD CPUs being up to 20% faster, Intel will lose out in gaming as well)
Intel has even lost when it comes to mobile CPUs - AMD CPUs are significantly faster, to the point where low/mid range AMD laptop 4xxx gen CPUs are beating high end Intel laptop CPUs while consuming half the power

3. Yes, you are indeed right - due to some agreements from sale of GloFlo AMD is required to use them until 2021 (or 2024, not sure) so AMD has been producing some of its 1st/2nd gen CPUs with gloflo - still, all the 7nm AMD CPUs are made by TSMC and GloFlo does not have 7nm capabilities - AFAIK samsung and TSMC are the only ones with 7nm production lines, GloFlo is stuck with 14nm and bigger process nodes (TSMC has no obligation to provide 7nm tech to gloflo nor does gloflo have the machines to produce 7nm chips - if you have a link proving otherwise, please share it)

4. Do they pay taxes in US?

5. Cause server market is slow to move and it takes years to move on to new tech

6. AMD has gained traction with high profile buyers of its Epyc line of server CPUs (Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Twitter, Dell, etc) and you will see in the coming years AMD server share significantly increase (even if they get to 20% share that will mean huge revenue increase)
Companies always start with small scale roll outs for new server CPUs just to be sure there wont be issues
Considering AMD server CPUs provide comparable or higher performance to Intel CPUs at less power consumption it is to be expected that their server share will rise exponentially

7. Intel has issues with their 10nm process + it doesnt help that they refined their 14nm process to the point where it makes their initial 10nm CPUs inferior + it costs shitload of money to move to a smaller process node - just look at TSMCs R&D budget, its massive money and it takes years of work
Thats why currently AMD has the CPU advantage - they just have to pay TSMC for wafers, while TSMC does most of the R&D
Intel, on the other hand, has to do everything in house - they don't outsource anything

Its a good thing that AMD becomes a major competitor to Intel in the CPU space - having only 1 player on the market will lead to tech stagnation..

 

[jefferz]

1. Everyone knows that yet still everyone still does business in China (Samsung, LG, Apple, Tesla, Intel, AMD, Nike, etc) and US government approved of the AMD/China licensing deal so its a moot point

2. Intel CPU power consumption has been increasing steadily over their entire lineup due to the use of aging 14nm process (and now "unrefined" 10nm process) and milking their 2012 skylake architecture for all its worth - we are now at a point that i9-10900K will require water cooling (a 360mm radiator to dissipate heat) for it to reach its advertised boost clocks - it's a 10 core CPU, that produces more heat than AMDs flagship 16 core 3950X CPU, while offering lower performance

Intel hasn't moved from their 4 core CPUs cause their profit margins and lack of competition gave them no reason to - now its biting them in the ass with AMD taking the performance lead in all but gaming (and if reports of this years AMD CPUs being up to 20% faster, Intel will lose out in gaming as well)
Intel has even lost when it comes to mobile CPUs - AMD CPUs are significantly faster, to the point where low/mid range AMD laptop 4xxx gen CPUs are beating high end Intel laptop CPUs while consuming half the power

3. Yes, you are indeed right - due to some agreements from sale of GloFlo AMD is required to use them until 2021 (or 2024, not sure) so AMD has been producing some of its 1st/2nd gen CPUs with gloflo - still, all the 7nm AMD CPUs are made by TSMC and GloFlo does not have 7nm capabilities - AFAIK samsung and TSMC are the only ones with 7nm production lines, GloFlo is stuck with 14nm and bigger process nodes (TSMC has no obligation to provide 7nm tech to gloflo nor does gloflo have the machines to produce 7nm chips - if you have a link proving otherwise, please share it)

4. Do they pay taxes in US?

5. Cause server market is slow to move and it takes years to move on to new tech

6. AMD has gained traction with high profile buyers of its Epyc line of server CPUs (Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Twitter, Dell, etc) and you will see in the coming years AMD server share significantly increase (even if they get to 20% share that will mean huge revenue increase)
Companies always start with small scale roll outs for new server CPUs just to be sure there wont be issues
Considering AMD server CPUs provide comparable or higher performance to Intel CPUs at less power consumption it is to be expected that their server share will rise exponentially

7. Intel has issues with their 10nm process + it doesnt help that they refined their 14nm process to the point where it makes their initial 10nm CPUs inferior + it costs shitload of money to move to a smaller process node - just look at TSMCs R&D budget, its massive money and it takes years of work
Thats why currently AMD has the CPU advantage - they just have to pay TSMC for wafers, while TSMC does most of the R&D while Intel has to do everything in house

1. Handing over technology to China because the government approved it is a piss poor excuse.

2. I said they went a different direction, I didn't say the succeeded.

3. I was wrong about them licensing to GloFlo, they signed a cross licensing deal. https://wccftech.com/tsmc-globalfoundries-10-year-cross-licensing-agreement-to-profit-both/
here's an article on AMD's and GloFlo's deal https://www.anandtech.com/show/1391...th-globalfoudries-set-to-buy-wafers-till-2021

4. https://csimarket.com/stocks/singleProfitabilityRatios.php?code=AMD&itx

5. That and Intel will build you a custom chip for your needs, AMD won't.

6. Epyc has been out for almost 3 years now. We should start seeing them roll out soon

7. You may call that an advantage, I call that a disadvantage. If TSMC has problems or they get into a disagreement, AMD is screwed.

AMD needs to be pushing more towards the laptop market IMO, that's where the money is made in the consumer cpu market.

 

[bobgeese]

We need to pull a page out of the Da Vinci playbook.


We know they engage in cyber intelligence theft. Why not start purposefully writing "mistakes" (or better yet boobeytraps) in our files, that unless you’re aware of, could be crippling to your infrastructure. It would take a little thought. We would definitely need some decoy code, a key fire distributed amongst only trusted individuals, and a little engineering Wing Chun to get the chip to fry all the surrounding circuitry.


Yeah, that might just work.

 

[Hadron90]

TSM is one of the good ones, imo.

 

[jefferz]

TSM is one of the good ones, imo.

I really like TSM as well, mainly their Rainbow Six Siege team, but this a different conversation.

 

[Javelina]

i knew jack kilby. jack kilby was a friend of mine. ts, you're no jack kilby

 

[PEB]

Silicon Valley sending a warning that the US is falling behind Taiwan and Asian countries because of their government backing. They say these companies have received 10's of billions from their countries to put them ahead of the US. They will announce today they are seeking billions to put the US back in front. This report was on CNBC no article yet no doubt it will be all over later today.

 

[Project 2501]

Reading this thread with my ryzen powered rig