In light of Cormier/Mir announcement...

[90 50]

you never know which mir's gonna show up since the accident.

I'll be routing for Mir, but he could be in trouble on the feet with Cormiers speed.

 

[sthpark]

I think Cormier destroys Mir. I'd take Big Foot and Barnett both over Mir and we see how that went against Cormier

 

[RawDawgBob]

Mir has surprized me before. Still, i wouldnt bet on him.

 

[JayElectra]

If you don't go by a fighters experience, record, matches and what they've shown / proven against competition, what do you go by?



Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us. What sort of objective measures do you use to come by your 'in depth' fight analysis?

Choosing Cormier because he looked good against Bigfoot and Barnett is the same as choosing Mir because he KTFO'd Cro Cop and broke Nog's arm.

Mir didn't look good against Noguiera or Cro Cop (who was fighting on short notice), other than the finishes. His overall performance in both fights left a lot to be desired. Cormier was dominant over Bigfoot and Barnett (and both Bigfoot and Barnett are not hugely different stylistically than Mir, whereas Cro Cop and Nog are much different than Cormier).

 

[Badworker]

I think Cormier destroys Mir. I'd take Big Foot and Barnett both over Mir and we see how that went against Cormier

Big Foot has no head movement and was a sitting duck; and Bartnett has been wildly overinflated for years

Picking Cormier to win solely for how he did against those two is just silly; I'm sure if you think hard enough you can come up with better reasons than that

 

[Basindo]

Yes, Mir has pretty much been beaten by only the top heavyweights in the world...at least since after the Vera fight.




And Cormier is one of if not the best heavyweight in the world.

 

[sthpark]

Big Foot has no head movement and was a sitting duck; and Bartnett has been wildly overinflated for years

Picking Cormier to win solely for how he did against those two is just silly; I'm sure if you think hard enough you can come up with better reasons than that

And Mir hasn't? Save a couple of last min finishes in fights where he looked awful. I don't need the above mentioned reasons, I believe Cormier beats Mir. I don't think Mir can stand and trade with him and Mir's wrestling and take downs aren't in the same league as Cormier. Just my opinion, if Mir wins then I'll eat my words. Im not a Mir hater or a huge Cormier fan, I fairly indifferent on this fight, but from judging from performances of their last few fights Cormier takes this rather easily.

 

[sthpark]

If you guys are so confident in Mir winning this fight, hit me up for some good ole sig bets. Everyone has their own opinion and mine is that Cormier wins this fight.

 

[JayElectra]

Big Foot has no head movement and was a sitting duck; and Bartnett has been wildly overinflated for years

Picking Cormier to win solely for how he did against those two is just silly; I'm sure if you think hard enough you can come up with better reasons than that

Alright, we can actually break them down skill for skill. Cormier is just plain athletically superior in all criteria. Faster feet, faster hands and much stronger as far as the grappling goes. He will dictate where the fight goes. On the feet, as far as the boxing goes, he is superior in terms of all technical measures and he has much faster hands as well as being simply faster in every sense. Cormier actually possesses a jab which he dominated both Bigfoot and Barnett with (and is a big reason why he gets inside so easily). He also has heavy hands.

Mir, on the other hand, has been rocked in 4 of his last 5 fights on the feet. He is rather predictable on the feet, though, he did have success against Kongo and in the first Nog fight with his straight and looping left hand. Cormier hasn't fought a southpaw yet which could cause some problems if he doesn't properly do his homework or get proper sparring. Cormier isn't Floyd Mayweather so he can't simply flaunt convention and fight a southpaw on his terms (as Floyd did to Victor Ortiz), or at least I don't think he can (I mean he actually has to be cognizant of footwork).

Unless Cormier shows a genuine weakness with Mir's southpaw style, I simply don't see him coming away with the victory. Cormier is too strong, too technical and, most signifincantly, too fast. Let us not forget that Frank has a rather questionable gas tank, as well.

 

[JayElectra]

If you guys are so confident in Mir winning this fight, hit me up for some good ole sig bets. Everyone has their own opinion and mine is that Cormier wins this fight.

Better than a sig bet, they should actually lay some money down. Mir is a 3 to 1 underdog and will likely fetch in the neighborhood of 5 to 1 for a win by sub (which many are predicting).

 

[Kneeuinthenutz]

Just as a precaution to many basing their assessment of this fight on Cormier's success with Barnett on the ground.

Barnett fought over 24 minutes of that fight with a severely broken hand. One can imagine just how much that impacted his ability to grapple.

 

[ocarey2]

I think a few of you are missing the point that T.S. is trying to make. Although he does stretch it past the original point at some stages the core of the message is that he believes certain people value UFC wins over wins outside of the UFC. In some cases so much so that they would make a betting favourite out of Mir based solely on the fact that he has fought in the UFC and Cormier has not despite the level of competition, particularly between the UFC and strikeforce in the heavyweight division, up until very recently has been relatively equal.

The real issue is that certain people struggle to reckognise the skillset of a fighter who has yet to show weakness because they haven't fought at the big show yet. The reality is that no fighters start their career in the UFC nowadays and that more often than not resumes are superseded in terms of importance by the stylistic matchup.

In this fight Cormier is a fast heavyweight with power and from what we have seen technical striking. Mir's striking has come on leaps and bounds over the years but his speed has plummeted since he piled on all that weight. In a kickboxing match, based on the evidence you would have to favour Cormier. Since Cormier owns far superior wrestling than Mir, pairing that with a healthy respect for the significant threat which Mir poses on the mat would suggest that Cormier can and will keep the fight standing thereby winning the match.

The only wild card is that very often fighters who have been successful in a promotion which has rivalled the UFC in terms of brand have often failed to replicate this success in the UFC, such as Cro Cop and Wanderlei.

 

[Emporio Alnino]

Big Foot has no head movement and was a sitting duck; and Bartnett has been wildly overinflated for years

Picking Cormier to win solely for how he did against those two is just silly; I'm sure if you think hard enough you can come up with better reasons than that

that sounds like frank mir down to a t.

 

[cluegoo**]

I think when it goes to the ground Cormier will get outclassed. If Nog gets his arm broken, Cormier has no chance.

Not really nog made a basic error in losing position when he never should have been going for a sub, cormier will be more sensible. Lesnar went to the ground with mir and beat the crap out of him, mir doesn't dominate everyone on the ground far from it. Cormier can go to ground but has to stay alert, mir isnt as dangerous as a guy like werdum off his back when guys get mir down many of them pound him out.

 

[jah provideth]

i'm not a mir fan. i don't like mir, his skill is solid, but not elite. i think cormier has this one.

 

[captaincaveman]

Cormier will dominate no matter where the fight goes.

 

[Natman2939]

I am glad the majority are favoring Cormier to beat Mir, although Mir definitely is capable of pulling off this upset. But there's still a sizable contingent who claims Mir is going to outclass Cormier simply because of his long UFC tenure against "proven" competition as if that's the be-all-end-all in a match-up (it's more-so their rationale than the fact that they are favoring Mir)

Case in point:


My question is: why aren't we capable of showing more depth in fight analyses beyond comparing "who has more UFC wins"

It's funny how people in MMA can't come to grips with fight skill and a fight record not being necessarily synonymous. Like Renan Barao is going to lose to Urijah Faber because Barao has only beat Brad Pickett and Faber has lost to everybody. Sometimes, it's a red flag if a fighter has beat nobody, but if the actual skills are there, seems silly to cry about the resume.

Then again, I heard a million people talking about Jon Jones getting trashed by Shogun for the same reason. It's like, you know, whatever.

Boxing fans, by comparison, appear to have a more nuanced understanding of their sport. I understand that MMA as a sport is relatively young, but we can still definitely step up our game. Just my $0.02

reading that quote you provided, I don't get the impression that it's just "more ufc wins" that makes the guy pick Mir.

I see it like this:
-He says Mir is definitely being underrated because despite the fact he's had some bad losses, almost all of them were to UFC Champions (in fact, all 3 of his losses since his comeback have been in UFC title fights)
-And on top of his losses only being to Champions, he's had some very good wins against great competition (Nog x2, Crocop, Nelson, Kongo, ect)
-while to contrast: Cormier is fairly unproven against elite competition (regardless of org) if it weren't for barnett, let's be honest, he's hardly fought anyone. Literally just barnett and bigfoot.
-furthermore, Mir has better striking and a much better submissions, while Cormier only has decent striking and better wrestling
-finally Mir is going in with a distinct size advantage, both in weight and height.


So as far as how a person would fairly look at a fight, this seems pretty standard. He's saying Frank Mir is bigger, has better striking and great subs, and has beaten great competition and only lost to champions while Cormier is unproven.

Yes a guy can still be great while unproven, but it's certainly a fair point to bring up when breaking down a fight; in fact, I'd say it's more dumb to overlook a fighter being unproven than it is to write someone off for being unproven.

ESPECIALLY when you consider that a lot of people are acting like this is going to be an easy fight for Daniel Cormier, I can see why someone would say Cormier is being hyped. I mean geez, one big win over Barnett and suddenly FRANK MIR is an easy fight? Come on...

and yes, i'm very capable of judging someone's skillset without necessarily seeing them against the best opponents which is why I was saying Reem would beat JDS and be champion before the cain fight, but I don't see the magic with Cormier, he is definitely being overhyped. To what extent? I don't know yet.