I'll be darned, Evil Eyegouger is right about honsinsul in TKD...

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by aaron_mag, Jul 28, 2005.

  1. aaron_mag

    aaron_mag Purple Belt

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    Whenever there is a debate on TKD you see Evil Eyegouger jumping in and talking about hosinsul (self defence) and how TKD guys are supposed to practice it, but don't.

    Well I just got an early edition of Choi's book (published in 1968) and I have to say EEG is correct. There are actually escapes, throws, and minor joint locks that a practitioner is supposed to be familiar with. We do some of this stuff, but it is only a token service to what we're supposed to be doing.

    Automatically the question came to mind, "How the heck is all this supposed to be fit in a class along with everything else?" That answer is also in the book. Class is supposed to be three fricken hours long and you're supposed to practice six times a week! My classes growing up were only 90 minutes. I used to take it 5 days a week and I was considered sort of crazy for doing it that much.

    When I do my Sambo class back to back with my TKD class I'm almost meeting the three hour requirement and I only do that like two to three days a week. Not six...

    We modern martial artists just aren't dedicated as we should be. I'd love to be that dedicated, but I have a family to feed and maintain in 'the style they've grown accustomed to...'

    Ah well...
     
  2. Gregster

    Gregster Black Belt

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    Something that many of us have known all along. EEG is one of a tiny number of folks around here who genuinely know their business when it comes to TKD (Kyryllo and KO Kid being others).

    Take more time. It'd be great if you could go on sabbatical and train like a madman, but real life tends to interfere with such stuff.

    My instructor didn't have class where'd he more or less say "Okay, now we're gonna do defense against a wrist grab" and then "Now we're gonna practice roundhouse kicks" and then "Alrighty...breakfalls!" Devote a class to a set of specific, attainable goals, make sure to rotate what you train in enough so you don't forget.

    A well-rounded TKD student should have at least couple new escapes, locks, or throws mastered in order to advance in rank during testing. After you get to the intermediate level, you'll know a surprising amount.
     
  3. Sohei

    Sohei Manning the air

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    What do the techniques described in the book look like? Aikido? Judo? Are there any groundfighting techniques?
     
  4. Evil Eye Gouger

    Evil Eye Gouger Gold Belt

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    Thanks, dude, but don't forget Doughbelly.
     
  5. Gregster

    Gregster Black Belt

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    Ah, yes. I forgot to add the standard "and anyone else I forgot...you know who you are!" tag to my little shout-out. ;)
     
  6. Gregster

    Gregster Black Belt

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    Hapkido.

    TKD is not an art unto itself, but an organizing influence under which Korea's various and disparate martial arts, many of which are still taught singly (Hapkido, Tang Soo Do, Hwarang Do, Kuk Sul Won, Tae Kyun) were brought into.

    To my knowledge, there's no groundfighting in TKD...that's an area where it's certainly lacking. Though my instructor, who got plenty of hosinsul/HKD training used joint locks, grabs, and throws in the vast majority of his dozens upon dozens of encounters working as a bouncer in a couple of bars when we were in college and he was never, by my recollection, ever taken off his feet.
     
  7. Orsyn

    Orsyn Asian Connoisseur

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    When I was going through a training course to become an instructor at my kung fu school that was the minimum time we had to put it :( I was training 7/week and on Sunday it was just light and reviewing my stuff. We had to not only attend our regular sparring and stuff, we also were required to worth with other instructor trainees for x amount of hours and required to spend x amount teaching certain sash level material. This is on top of also reviewing our older technigues/forms while practicing our current techniques/forms/weapons while were were still testing to advance. We had meetings/workouts on Fridays til 10:30 PM and had to go home, unwind and try to get some stuff done, then be at the school at 7:30 am Sat morning for a 4 hours training session.

    I swear my social life ground to a halt. I eventually gor burnt out so hard I took a long break from martial arts. But now getting back in to boxing and trying to get back down the my weight/body fat of when I was training so hard.
     
  8. Evil Eye Gouger

    Evil Eye Gouger Gold Belt

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    Exactly.

    TKD is not a grappling art. TKD self-defense includes simple throws, joint locks (mostly small joint manipulation) and escapes from common attacks. It's meant to protect you from lapel grabs, arm and wrist grabs, bearhugs, and some weapon attacks.

    It cannot prepare you for a grappling match, but it can be useful in a real-life situation against aggressive dudes who start grabbing you.
     
  9. Sohei

    Sohei Manning the air

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    Yeah I know theres generally alot of Hapkido in TKD but Ive never heard of honshinsul self-defense techniques before.
     
  10. aaron_mag

    aaron_mag Purple Belt

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    That is pretty much what was in the book.

    Personally I like the way that we were trained in the limited time we had. The emphasis was on sweat and conditioning. So you got pretty fit and could kick really well. So well that I used to drop people in kickboxing sparring practice even though I'd never done it before.

    But our hosinsul was very lacking. Even though our Korean instructor knew it. In those days you'd get these big guys who would come in and give him grief. We'd see him throw them out by using finger locks/wrist locks. And of course we'd think, "What the heck? We were planning on sidekicking that guy out of the dojang and he does it without even throwing a kick or a punch? How come he never teaches us that stuff?" Oh he would, every once in awhile, but three times a year was hardly enough to be proficient at it.

    I wonder how Hapkido differs from a grappling art like Sambo...I'll have to study up on it sometime...
     
  11. Brazilian HKD

    Brazilian HKD Brown Belt

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    maybe i told you before but try to find a dojang whose instrutor/master trained with choi or ji han jae BEFORE the 1979 scandal , because after that, hkd became watered down ( the korean president Park, Chung-Hee was murdered by one of the students of ji han jae, so he had to water down the art to a more spiritual side and no sparring)

    this federation looks ok to me
    http://www.worldhapkido.com/

    check some videos
    here

    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=25174&page=2
     
  12. funkgsus

    funkgsus Orange Belt

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    this is a very interesting diccusion. In my school our intructor is a bb in hapkido and TKD so we have some basic self defense thrown in with our TKD. Personaly I'd love to really spend some time in just hapkido. While were talking about hosinsul, does anyone know a could combo for a lock/throw followed by a kick because I find it weird doing a joint lock on some one because I don't know what to do after, do I just break it or do i let go and see if he comes at me again, I never quite know how to end it without punching or kicking.
     
  13. Brazilian HKD

    Brazilian HKD Brown Belt

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    actually most wrist locks for self defense (some of them are exactly the same as bas rutten and the gracies teach in their self dfense videos) are made to snap the joints, plain and simple

    submitting somebody in stand has less control than in the ground, and in most cases the gravity does the service of injuring the guy, on good example is sak vs renzo, sak simply couldn't control the kimura and it dislocated renzo's arm

    and in a recent fight (i won't spoil you which fight) one guys tried a kimura and his adversary coutered it and then the guy who tried the kimura was got in a perfect shoulder lock
    like this one

    http://judoinfo.com/images/kata/renkoho.jpg
    the frist 2 pics
    what the guy who has the sub did? just pushed him to the ropes to fight again

    what could he do in a self defense situation?

    -snap the shoulder (not recomended for legal reasons)

    -put on of his legs in front of his legs and take him down, once in the ground do the knee to the belly technique, but this time in his bent arm (perfect to cops for handcuffing)

    -let it go (i wouldn't do that agains someone dangerous

    - kick his leg from the back and wait him to fall to put the knee to the belly and GNP him


    it's kinda hard to explain but i hope you got the ideia
     
  14. aaron_mag

    aaron_mag Purple Belt

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    Thanks for the videos. I'm guessing punches to the face weren't allowed in that tournament? How about kicks to the head? It looks like the same as Sambo with kicks. Although in sport Sambo I don't think they allow chokes (we practice combat Sambo where it is allowed).

    What separates Hapkido from Sambo/Judo/BJJ. Sambo guys, for example, are always saying that it is the takedowns and leg locks that really separate Sambo from BJJ (and not having a real closed guard game). So what would a Hapkido guy say gives the style its distinction from others?
     
  15. Gregster

    Gregster Black Belt

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    I can't comment authoritatively on the state of Hapkido as an art alone today...but what you say squares with my impressions, to whit: if you wanna learn "real" Hapkido, good luck finding an instructor outside of Korea.

    It's a pity that the Korean arts, which are incredibly diversified and taken singly offer a wide variety of paths to choose, have been so heavily diluted to make them palatable to the masses in the US; too many substandard practitioners calling themselves "master" and opening a school, too much emphasis on the sport aspect and imparting good cardio and self-esteem.

    My instructor trained old school and had a pretty good HKD repetoire. I don't know anything to advanced, but I've been exposed well to the basics, and I think in most arts the basics are what works in a real fight. Just knowing a few joint locks, reversals, and a throw or two makes for a potent addition to an otherwise all-striking curriculum.
     
  16. aaron_mag

    aaron_mag Purple Belt

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    I'm not sure about the lack of authenticity of Hapkido schools in the U.S., but I can mention one thing I've seen. We've had black belts that have broken away from our Korean Master and, soon after, seen them advertise 'Taekwon-do and Hapkido'. You gotta wonder how good their Hapkido curriculum is when they never learned any at our school!

    That is why Hapkido was always this mystery to me. You'd see it advertised with Taekwon-do. So whenever you went to watch a class you'd only see TKD and wonder, "What the heck is Hapkido?"
     
  17. Sohei

    Sohei Manning the air

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    Dude our instructor was the same way! Wed do stretching and warmups for class, poomse, then hed show us 1 or 2 Hapkido self-defense moves and give us like 1 minute to try them out, then wed spend half an hour on TKD sparring. We were always like, "how the f*ck did you do that?"
     
  18. Brazilian HKD

    Brazilian HKD Brown Belt

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    it's something like this (kinda superficial but just to have and ideia)

    wrestling- takedowns, clinch, control and position

    judo-gi based takedowns, agressive ground work due to the rules, turtling

    sambo- takedowns, leg locks

    bjj- guard work, position over submission

    catch- control over submission, hooking, ripping

    aikido- wrist control, circular footwork, standing submissions

    jjj- lots of samurai based techniques,father of bjj (ground),judo(takedowns) and aikido (standing disarms and submissions)

    submission wrestling- combinations of bjj,wrestling, sambo, judo and everything else

    hapkido- two tendencies , one is more like aikido, other like judo, the thing that diferenciates it are the dirty tricks and the approach (striking after the submission, eyegouging, sub combinations, fingerlocks)
     
  19. Brazilian HKD

    Brazilian HKD Brown Belt

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    korea has a lot of mcdojangs... maybe as much as in the Usa...

    but still you can find some good dojangs because

    a)with the mma events hkd guys began to compete in it to test their techniques

    b)some korean events are beginning to bring sparring and tournaments with combats

    actually it's something we were doing for years here in sao paulo

    BTW i am competing sunday for another hkd tournament
    the categories are

    -pure grappling (i am in this one the thing i have to take care is about the fingerlocks)

    -combat (open hand strikes to the head, limited ground work like in judo, kicks to anywhere except groin of course, kness and elbows only to the body, slams, piking, leglocks, neck crancks, ear and finger grabbing are all allowed)

    -and vale tudo (no rules, i am not in this one because 1- they are not offering money nor even medical assistance, 2- not HIV tests, 3- they just announced this one 1 month before so i had no time to even train for that while others dojangs knew it since the beggining of the year, but good luck for those are doing that)

    wish me good luck fellas
     
  20. Evil Eye Gouger

    Evil Eye Gouger Gold Belt

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    Good luck, dude. Make sure you tell us how it went.
     

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