If you're an MMA fan

Argued with my buddies all night, and for the next decade; about whether the Tuli fight should have been stopped.

Been on both sides of that argument at one time or another. Tuli has to be on the all chin GOAT list.
 
Youd be hard pressed to make anything resembling a credible argument for why MMA is not more of a real fight than boxing.

Is not the lack of rules and variety of techniques/options available for attacking the defining aspect of a real fight vs combat sports? In what way is boxing closer to that?

I get that you are a boxing fan, and Im not discussing boxing's legitimacy or effectiveness, only its distance from the concept of a real fight when compared to MMA.

It's quite simple really, two reasons:

1) First of all, there's still a fuck load of rules and regulations in MMA that do hinder your ability to do max damage and finish your opponent. You'd agree with that right? Even if you take out eye gouges and biting (which are viable, but uncommon in real fights) you're still left with a shit load of stuff you can't do. Headbutts, stomps, knees or kicks to head of grounded opponent, hits to the back of the head, groin shots, spine shots, spinning piledrivers. That's a load of handicapping, that puts MMA at some distance from a real fight.

2) If you watch 100 street fights, probably 90 of them are going to resemble a bare knuckle boxing match between two scrubs, more than an MMA match. That's how most people fight, that's most people's fighting instinct, to just throw down with fists. That's what most "real fights" are. And in real fights, when someone goes down, the opponent usually either waits for them to get up and continue fighting, or fucking stomps them and kicks them in the head. Neither of which resemble MMA. You don't generally see people circling, leg kicking, and going for flying armbars do you? :)

I mean, maybe you have a slightly fictionalised view of real fights, where the fighters are superhumans like Tony Ferguson, with all these skills and weapons at their disposal. But the reality is most them look like a scrubby bare knuckle boxing match like I said. Also, most "real fights" are shit anyway compared to boxing and MMA ;)
 
Yo that kickboxer showed a great display of tdd there against that sumo wrassler.

He seriously did. That surprised me more than anything, watching it back, he could not have practiced much TDD surely? Must have just had a natural talent for it.
 
You sound just like me. I graduated in '97 and grew up as the only kid I knew that liked boxing outside Mike Tyson and 'Punchout. I grew up watching tons of box and the 80's and 90' were amazing for it. So I was about 15 when I saw UFC 2 for the first time. Young people today can watch them online or on DVD but nothing can compare to those first ones watching what felt very underground and so incredibly new to the world at the time. They weren't the easiest thing to even find on PPV then with internet to hype it and no digital cable to find it on. PPV was wack as hell back then. I've been watching ever since and it is so cool to watch how much it has grown.

That underground feel is a great way to describe it. These young guys are spoiled as hell with all of the access & content. I remember being in awe that all of the mystical TMA shit we learned in the 70s & 80s was BS. Good times, man!
 
It's quite simple really, two reasons:

1) First of all, there's still a fuck load of rules and regulations in MMA that do hinder your ability to do max damage and finish your opponent. You'd agree with that right? Even if you take out eye gouges and biting (which are viable, but uncommon in real fights) you're still left with a shit load of stuff you can't do. Headbutts, stomps, knees or kicks to head of grounded opponent, hits to the back of the head, groin shots, spine shots, spinning piledrivers. That's a load of handicapping, that puts MMA at some distance from a real fight.

2) If you watch 100 street fights, probably 90 of them are going to resemble a bare knuckle boxing match between two scrubs, more than an MMA match. That's how most people fight, that's most people's fighting instinct, to just throw down with fists. That's what most "real fights" are. And in real fights, when someone goes down, the opponent usually either waits for them to get up and continue fighting, or fucking stomps them and kicks them in the head. Neither of which resemble MMA. You don't generally see people circling, leg kicking, and going for flying armbars do you? :)

I mean, maybe you have a slightly fictionalised view of real fights, where the fighters are superhumans like Tony Ferguson, with all these skills and weapons at their disposal. But the reality is most them look like a scrubby bare knuckle boxing match like I said. Also, most "real fights" are shit anyway compared to boxing and MMA ;)

Your whole argument (all aspects of both points you made) are making a critical mistake. You are only arguing why MMA is not like "real fighting". None of those aspects demonstrate even 1 way that boxing is closer to a real fight than MMA.


#1 is correct, but not relevent to your argument. Its what I expected you were going to say, but here is the thing:
Saying MMA has rules is not the point. Even a fuckton of rules, because.... NONE of those are rules that aren't in boxing as well! Boxing has all of those rules and a fuckton more.

#2 is also one I expected, and the same applies. In a street fight, you use whatever is your best technique for a victory. Scrubs might be more apt to swing for the fences (which looks a hell of a lot more like Liddell or Rumble than it does Ali or Mayweather). but that is only because they don't know what they are doing. They are certainly allowed to do that in MMA, it just isn't the best path to victory.

Im not trying to be rude, just saying that "MMA is not like real fighting" is far more truthful than "Boxing is just as close to real fighting as MMA is"
 
How can you not love UFC 1?

For a bit of nostalgia, I rewatched UFC 1 and some other early UFCs, for the first time since I was a kid in the 90's - they still seem fucking exciting, even after all these years.

It's great that MMA has evolved in the manner it is, basically to a discipline in itself, but there was something special about the original run of UFCs - the style vs style nature of it, the sheer unknown factor, and lack of rules and regulations.

I often laugh at people who say MMA is more of a real fight than boxing - but original UFC rules and Pride rules undeniably were.

OK no eye gouging or biting - but headbutts allowed, groin shots allowed, kicks to the face of a downed opponent allowed, shots to the back of the head allowed and no rounds - all that is a game changer. I can't help but love how raw and mental early UFC was. The open weight nature too, seemed fun after all these years.

Seeing UFC legends like Don Frye come out to that classic UFC walk out tune is still goosebump inducing.

Put it this way, the very first UFC fight involved a sumo wrestler's teeth getting lodged into the foot of a 6'5 kickboxer, and one flying into the crowd, within about 20 seconds :D

Couldn't be a more appropriate start for the UFC.

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<{JustBleed}>

And given Royce's success in the tournament, Jim Brown said it best with simply "Fighting's not what we thought it was".

My opinion back when I was a kid, and still now, is it was basically like an 80's martial arts film, like the sort of worldwide fighting tournament you'd see in those films - but real :D
I use to get so nervous watching those early events. It shouldn't even have the same name because those early events were a totally different beast. Honestly, I'm glad they added more rules, but I can't deny the adrenaline of watching them.
 
2) If you watch 100 street fights, probably 90 of them are going to resemble a bare knuckle boxing match between two scrubs, more than an MMA match. That's how most people fight, that's most people's fighting instinct, to just throw down with fists. That's what most "real fights" are. And in real fights, when someone goes down, the opponent usually either waits for them to get up and continue fighting, or fucking stomps them and kicks them in the head. Neither of which resemble MMA. You don't generally see people circling, leg kicking, and going for flying armbars do you? :)

I haven't seen enough real street fights to make a statistical assessment, but I saw a few fights in high school (late 80s) that went to the ground quickly. If the loser had some very basic ground skills, he could've changed the outcome. Of course none of us knew any of that and I never thought of the final fight scene in Lethal Weapon (1987--triangle choke choreographed with Rorian's help) as something you could end a fight with.
 
The "Just Bleed" guy said he lost interest in MMA years ago when they added more rules and weight classes. I agree the events were brutal and scary, but had an uncertainty and excitement that we'll never get back. Here's a good article about something we'll never see again.
http://www.espn.com/espn/eticket/story?page=eightmenout

And I get tired of people bashing Ken Shamrock, Tank, etc....when the only fights they saw with them were post-2003 when they came back from pro wrestling and were old, injured and not able to evolve with the sport. Unlike today's prima donnas, those guys would take a fight (or 3) in a day's notice, injured or not.
 
Biting should have been allowed. Imagine legal groin shots & biting creating an awful love child. Nut biting. Would have been a spectacle for the ages. Sherdog & it’s love of the male anatomy would have been aglow with excitement.
 
Your whole argument (all aspects of both points you made) are making a critical mistake. You are only arguing why MMA is not like "real fighting". None of those aspects demonstrate even 1 way that boxing is closer to a real fight than MMA.


#1 is correct, but not relevent to your argument. Its what I expected you were going to say, but here is the thing:
Saying MMA has rules is not the point. Even a fuckton of rules, because.... NONE of those are rules that aren't in boxing as well! Boxing has all of those rules and a fuckton more.

#2 is also one I expected, and the same applies. In a street fight, you use whatever is your best technique for a victory. Scrubs might be more apt to swing for the fences (which looks a hell of a lot more like Liddell or Rumble than it does Ali or Mayweather). but that is only because they don't know what they are doing. They are certainly allowed to do that in MMA, it just isn't the best path to victory.

Im not trying to be rude, just saying that "MMA is not like real fighting" is far more truthful than "Boxing is just as close to real fighting as MMA is"

That's fine, I know you're not being rude ;)

However, you are making the mistake of assuming I think boxing is more of a real fight :D

To put it simply, I think they are both rule based and limited enough to not be considered a real fight, so much of a muchness.

That was part of the point of this thread really. If you're prepared to gloss over the lack of biting and eye gouging, I think early UFC and Pride rules were more or less a sanctioned no holds barred fight. That's what made it so exciting, and just so different to boxing - and indeed modern day MMA ;)
 
This is going to be a controversial view but I consider UFC 12 to be the first UFC. UFC 1 is only considered the first cause it was numbered that way it was entirely different from the regulated UFC with weight classes.
 
The "Just Bleed" guy said he lost interest in MMA years ago when they added more rules and weight classes. I agree the events were brutal and scary, but had an uncertainty and excitement that we'll never get back. Here's a good article about something we'll never see again.
http://www.espn.com/espn/eticket/story?page=eightmenout

And I get tired of people bashing Ken Shamrock, Tank, etc....when the only fights they saw with them were post-2003 when they came back from pro wrestling and were old, injured and not able to evolve with the sport. Unlike today's prima donnas, those guys would take a fight (or 3) in a day's notice, injured or not.

And if was stupid for those guys to take a fight on a day or three days notice. Today there is just awareness of that and fighters act accordingly. AS did it because UFC 200 was a huge deal for the company and it really showed. Even doing it on a months notice isn't the brightest idea.
 
The commentary on UFC 1 was hilariously shit. Bill Superfoot Wallace with the awkward gulp during the introduction. Its been a while since I watched it but I remember someone said something like "hes a kickboxer which means hes good at kicking and boxing" and I think someone was described as a "karate person" or "boxing person" as well lol.

PS: Kevin Rozier (RIP iirc?) was surely lying about his kickboxing experience, right?

PSS: Its crazy how quickly the talent/skill level developed from there. By the time of UFC 15 just four years later you had stuff like Randy vs Vitor ffs. 90% of MMAs evolution happened in the 90s.
 
And if was stupid for those guys to take a fight on a day or three days notice. Today there is just awareness of that and fighters act accordingly. AS did it because UFC 200 was a huge deal for the company and it really showed. Even doing it on a months notice isn't the brightest idea.

Different time, different sport. I have mad respect for the pioneers who did what no modern fighter is willing to do.
 
MMA is obviously closer to "real fighting" than boxing, because MMA is simply boxing + other stuff allowed.

On the continuum of LARPing to Real fighting, boxing and MMA are set at two different places.
 
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