If you think Jones is the GOAT, please answer this question

[wilKO]

I don’t recall a spilled sample. Do you have a link for that?

http://m.fightland.vice.com/blog/the-circus-surrounding-jose-aldos-ufc-189-drug-test

Very bizarre incident

 

[IloveTHIS]

I don't think he's the GOAT but everybody takes PEDs so although it is a blemish to get caught it doesn't eliminate him from the running for me.

Fedor is the GOAT. Because he is the GOAT HW and went 10 years at the hardest weight class to not lose in and didn't lose.

This sums up how I feel. For Jones, Anderson, GSP there is either absolute fact or at the least VERY strong reasonable suspicion to believe they cheated. Not gonna say who falls into which category but you all can guess.

We have no proof or even reason to believe Fedor used PEDS. He could very well be natty which would just make his reign even more awe inspiring. But even if did use PEDS, he fought where PEDS were allowed. So either way it was a completely even playing field.

 

[wilKO]

By PEDs what are you referring to specifically?

Are you including whey protein and preworkout?

No. I'm talking about illegal PEDs. I can't say which ones any fighter is on but I assume all top level athletes are on something.

 

[Von Leon]

but I assume all top level athletes are on something.

Any reason for that?

 

[SalvadorCollie]

If you’re

Any reason for that?

Read Gary Goodridge’s book. His philosophy is if you aren’t doing everything in your power to win (including drugs) you aren’t giving it all you’re capable of.

great read. Bad philosophy for modern times, but back then it had some grounds.

 

[Mohawk Banditó]

I think the whole concept of GOAT is stupid tbh.

P.S: literally nobody, not even the most diehard Jones fan, would go with "A".

I'd really like to think no one would say A because they would just be factually wrong, but this is sherdog and people are retarded, especially by judging a lot of the responses here.

"You forgot d) it doesn't matter cuz there's USADA and in the fights he didn't test positive for, he won."
Yeah, that's C. Please read

"Which group is he's the best, cuz USADA didn't always exist and people were doing PED's then and most probably still are?"
B. That one's B. It's all right there.

"You forgot a whole category, he's not the goat."
No, this whole thread is conditional on if you do think that. Again, it's all in the thread


Wasn't a giant OP, and people still failed 4th grade English.

 

[wilKO]

Any reason for that?

The physical pressures of training multiple times a day, multiple times a week, injury recovery.

The financial pressure from family etc. These guys need to put as much food on the table as possible in a ten year window. Sponsors, promotions want the best guys. Huge pressure to make yourself better.

Any time a professional fighter is asked about how many fighters take PEDs they always say something like "80% of the guys are using." They will also add "but I'm not" which means nothing. There is so much financial interest in making sure stars don't get caught and that they keep winning. Watch Icarus.

 

[Xoleth]

I figure if you think he is the GOAT, you fall into one of 3 groups:

You either think (A) he never took steroids, (B) think he did, but think that everyone else is on steroids too so it doesn't matter, or (C) think that steroids don't matter and that he'd have beaten everyone he has even if he were clean.

So which group do you fall into? I'm trying to figure out the thinking of all his diehard fans and each and every one of them has to fall into one of these three groups.

You are trying to find logic where it doesn't exists.
Many people choose their favorite fighters/GOATs based on criterias like:
- wow, Fedor is bulky, I am bulky, I'll go with Fedor
- GSP is so polite, I am polite, I'll go with GSP
- Jon is black, I am black, Jon it is
- Silva had some amazing KOs when I was 10, Silva is the GOAT
- I am from Ireland, so it's Conor
- GSP was bullied, I was bullied too
- I would like to look/to b like this guy, this guy it is
- I look like this guy, this guy it is
- I watch MMA mainly for trash talk and cannot tell an uppercut from a cross, Conor it is
- I'm very short, I'll go with MM

You can find negative parts about every GOAT candidate:
- GSP - tapped to strikes, lost to Hendricks, was on roids because he had a gut, cherry picked Bisping, aliens, ran from Silva (funny thing... Silva ran from Jones is never an argument)
- Fedor - took steroids because they were legal in Pride, had poor competition, lousy record in the USA fights, Pride was a joke, modern HWs beat him
- Silva - dick pills, had many loses, wrestlefucked by Chael for 4 rounds, weaker competition than my favorite GOAT candidate
- Jones - steroids, lost to Gus, lost to Santos, should have been DQ vs Smith, DQ vs Hamill, eye pokes and more eye pokes, ducks HWs, cocaine

A) yeah, tainted supplements, cocaine, Cialis
B) so why most fighters don't get caught? are they more smart? does UFC protect them but it doesn't protect Jones? they have more resources/more money?
C) if steroids don't matter, why are fighters taking them? Why are they used in every sport? whey do they increase bone density, muscle mass, make recovery much faster?

 

[legkicktko]

Yes I do.

How do you figure Cormier on PED’s?

 

[DesiredUserName]

I figure if you think he is the GOAT, you fall into one of 3 groups:

You either think (A) he never took steroids, (B) think he did, but think that everyone else is on steroids too so it doesn't matter, or (C) think that steroids don't matter and that he'd have beaten everyone he has even if he were clean.

or maybe (D) wins in which he was proven to have taken something should be ignored but the rest should be assumed to have been when he was clean and are enough to put him over the top as GOAT. (not saying he is GOAT... just listing another possible scenario)

 

[Shinobi]

"Everybody takes PEDS" is a shitty excuse to ignore Jon's disgraceful behaviour and keep sucking his dick. How the fuck do you know everybody takes PEDs? Do you know every single MMA fighter in the world? Have you tested them personally? It's such a retarded, nonsensical claim to make. And even if it is true, everyone is innocent until proven guilty, so AS FAR AS YOU KNOW FOR A FACT, only a small percentage of fighters fight with illegal shit in their systems, and Jon is FACTUALLY one of them, which makes him NOT the GOAT. And EVEN if he was clean, he would still not be the GOAT given the fact that there are people out there who have destroyed much bigger men and competed in different divisions while he stays in the same place fighting people with 10 reach disadvantages.

 

[theleerygoose]

Jones is the only GOAT candidate who fought multiple times in the USADA era.

Fedor - fought in Pride so he was never tested. Could have been juiced to the gills for all we know, and probably was.
Anderson Silva - tested positive as soon as he fought under USADA
GSP - had one fight under USADA

So yeah, which GOAT candidate are you sure never took steroids TS?

 

[kflo]

This right here is the correct answer.

The PEDs didn’t just give him an advantage in the fights where he was dirty, they completely transformed his physique. He went from having the physique of an anorexic pre-pubescent teenage girl (albeit a tall one) to being an absolute monster.

It’s shit that people give him a free pass for it. If you care about combat sports at all then you should be treating guys that cheat in a context of this nature (where the goal is to hurt your opponent) with the disdain they deserve.

ufc 87 - first ufc fight

ufc 214 - NC fight:

so which fight did his physique transform?

 

[wilKO]

How do you figure Cormier on PED’s?

Because he's a top athlete. And I believe all top athletes are.

 

[legkicktko]

Because he's a top athlete. And I believe all top athletes are.

Well no offense, but that’s silly

 

[TheToqueville]

If he isn't the goat, then who is? "YoU hAvE tO fAlL iNtO oNe Of ThReE cAtEgOrIeS": a) Fedor b) GSP c) Anderson Silva

Who knows if Fedor was on the juice or not, but he certainly competed when many others were. If he wasn't and was still dominate, that would prove your option C that steroids must not make a difference. If he was on the juice, he is no better than Jones.

GSP had multiple losses, one of which was to Matt fucking Serra, and conveniently went inactive once USADA came around (even though he was the one that called for it).

Anderson Silva has a loss to Michael fucking Bisping. Not that I need to say more, but he also popped for steroids.

Jon's no saint, but he sure as hell is the GOAT.

Haha Tuna and Lions..... great scene.

 

[Intellidamus]

It's a well known fact on Sherdog that everyone is on PEDs, except for the guys who get caught, they're mostly innocent.

Lol, this is so fucking true of this place.

 

[Intellidamus]

This sums up how I feel. For Jones, Anderson, GSP there is either absolute fact or at the least VERY strong reasonable suspicion to believe they cheated. Not gonna say who falls into which category but you all can guess.

We have no proof or even reason to believe Fedor used PEDS. He could very well be natty which would just make his reign even more awe inspiring. But even if did use PEDS, he fought where PEDS were allowed. So either way it was a completely even playing field.

Similar argument is made for Bonds in the mlb steroid era.

 

[Law Dog]

I think he’s the GOAT because I see him always beating people up and winning. Is there something else I should be looking for?

 

[Hatorade]

It's both B and C for me.
The thing is that the current GOAT contenders for most people are Jones, GSP, Anderson, and Fedor.
Jones taking steroids might have fucked DC out of being the GOAT, but he's still ahead of any of those cats regardless IMO.

GSP lost twice, and once in the prime of his career to a gatekeeper by tapping to strikes. I'm also convinced he's just as dirty as Jones but much smarter. His competition was just as good as a whole IMO, but Jones definitely has the bigger names.

Anderson popped for juice. He already had multiple loses before his decline. He got absolutely wrecked by Chael for over 20 minutes straight(I don't buy the hurt rib BS), and Jones would literally beat him into a living death in a head to head fight despite not really being that much bigger. I think if Jones just trained to be in the best shape he could and wasn't worried about his weight, He would be about 230bs. I think Anderson would be about 220lbs under the same criteria. Yes, Jones is bigger, but that fight wouldn't be competitive at all.

PRIDE Fedor is about the same weight as Jones would be as a HW IMO. They'e roughly the same size, but shaped differently. People will say Fedor is fat, but the truth is that he was sorta built like a brick shit-house in his prime. He looked a little soft in the middle but obviously was strong as fuck. I think Jones would beat him in a head to head fight most of the time. I just think that Jones is better than Fedor ever was. I also think that Fedor was juiced the fuck up in Japan just like everyone he fought, so Jones being dirty means nothing again.

DC might actually be the GOAT of this sport, but he will never get the credit he deserves. I don't think DC is on the juice. I think he's actually one of the clean ones. I think Jones was dirty both times they fought, and it absolutely mattered. We will never know, and it' a shame. DC just fought the current HW champ at over 40 years old and was winning for most of the fight. I think the best version of DC was right around the first Jones fight,, whic was also the best version of Jones IMO. He's definitely past prime these days.