If you don't train with GNP you don't have a ground game

redaxe said:
He has a free hand and you have a free hand on the same side, so you can block the bicep or control the wrist. And when he tries to punch/elbow/hammerfist you it creates and opening for you to shoot the triangle.

You guys use the Tozi pass in MMA training? I've never seen it used in MMA before but I think the only way it can happen is if you let him get wrist control on your free arm with his. If he loses that wrist control he is screwed. When people try to Tozi pass me in BJJ class it never works, and I usually end up triangling them. So I guess I can't really relate. But either way I don't see how striking really changes that situation much. I guess he can arm-punch you in the ribs but you can also elbow him in the temple, or whatever. And if he slips just a little, free triangle.
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They're probably not to good at it at all, do you know what the Chim/Tozi/Wilson pass is, you do not need any wrist control. Go watch some Wilson Reis in BJJ and MMA.
 
dirtypablo said:
Marcelo garcia did not get his face beat in. He completely dominated the first round, got caught with a few shots early in the second, and one of them cut him, so the fight was stopped. Frank Mir got his face beat in against lesnar. Marcelo not so much.
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I really like MG but dude you don't have to be "hit" 50 times in the face to get your face bashed in. That can happen in 1 or 2 really good shots.

SO the fight was stopped cause MG got hit with a couple great open shots to the face? Ergo he got his face bashed in and couldnt continue.

How many times has a fought mma since?
 
redaxe said:
I would be hesitant to use "93 guard" or "z-guard" in an MMA situation where all leg locks are legal. Just saying... I wouldn't want to use that guard on someone like Toquinho.
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I would be much more hesitant of tethering myself to my opponent (read closed guard here) in a dynamic street situation where his buddy could easily stomp me, vs me disengaging and kicking the guy in my 93 or z guard off allowing me to stand.
As for a leg lock expert grabbing my leg and ripping it off. That is possible. It must also be remembered that you are attacking from the guard, it is not a static fortified position.
Then, there's a good chance I will have enough time to draw Mr Glock19 and negotitate from a dominant position. As he is trying to attack my leg.


Closed guard is for dueling only. 1 on 1 gaming.
 
redaxe said:
He has a free hand and you have a free hand on the same side, so you can block the bicep or control the wrist. And when he tries to punch/elbow/hammerfist you it creates and opening for you to shoot the triangle.

You guys use the Tozi pass in MMA training? I've never seen it used in MMA before but I think the only way it can happen is if you let him get wrist control on your free arm with his. If he loses that wrist control he is screwed. When people try to Tozi pass me in BJJ class it never works, and I usually end up triangling them. So I guess I can't really relate. But either way I don't see how striking really changes that situation much. I guess he can arm-punch you in the ribs but you can also elbow him in the temple, or whatever. And if he slips just a little, free triangle.
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I know there are variations of the Tozi pass, but the one I use leaves me in no danger of a triangle.
Which one are you used to?
 
redaxe said:
I would be hesitant to use "93 guard" or "z-guard" in an MMA situation where all leg locks are legal. Just saying... I wouldn't want to use that guard on someone like Toquinho.
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Are we using the same nomenclature here? I see 93 and Z-guard as two distinct half guard variants, 93 having the foot on the hip and the knee pointed vertically, pressing against the same-side shoulder, with Z-guard having it pointed horizontally against the hip with the foot on the outside, ankles crossed. I find Z-guard much more susceptible to leg locks than 93 guard.
 
BatBoyJG said:
They're probably not to good at it at all, do you know what the Chim/Tozi/Wilson pass is, you do not need any wrist control. Go watch some Wilson Reis in BJJ and MMA.
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You mean this pass?

19ro9.gif


Obviously it works sometimes, but I'm not really sold on it. And Shad Lierley is a wrestler, he's not exactly known for his guard game. When Reis lifted his head up off the chest and reached back to push down on the leg, a good guard guy would have gotten the triangle--instead of just laying there and trying to hammerfist him in the face.

I asked my instructor about this pass and he straight up told me it is "not a good technique." I'm sure I'll get flamed for this since the Tozi pass is pretty popular here in f12, but I tend to agree that it's a flawed technique. Even flawed techniques work sometimes, though.

This also goes along with the principle that a lazy, weak overhook for you becomes just an underhook for your opponent, and vice versa.

And again, I don't see why you even brought this guard pass up, because training with strikes really doesn't change the situation here. The threat of the Tozi pass is the same regardless of whether it's MMA or just no-gi grappling.
 
Shemhazai said:
Are we using the same nomenclature here? I see 93 and Z-guard as two distinct half guard variants, 93 having the foot on the hip and the knee pointed vertically, pressing against the same-side shoulder, with Z-guard having it pointed horizontally against the hip with the foot on the outside, ankles crossed. I find Z-guard much more susceptible to leg locks than 93 guard.
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Yeah, I use both of those in my gi game, I prefer them to the traditional half guard, but I think the distinction between 93 guard and Z guard is going to be sort of irrelevant against a good leg lock guy. If your leg is horizontal, he will heel-hook or toe-hold you, if it is vertical he will foot-lock or maybe calf-crusher you. And depending how you defend, he will re-counter with some other leg lock. I'd rather not even start down that road.

I'm not saying you can't use 93 guard in MMA. Maybe you have better leglock defense than I do. I'm just saying that if it were me, I wouldn't risk it. Kind of like what Hillary and Zankou were saying in that "Ankle Grabbers?" thread.
 
redaxe said:
He has a free hand and you have a free hand on the same side, so you can block the bicep or control the wrist. And when he tries to punch/elbow/hammerfist you it creates and opening for you to shoot the triangle.

You guys use the Tozi pass in MMA training? I've never seen it used in MMA before but I think the only way it can happen is if you let him get wrist control on your free arm with his. If he loses that wrist control he is screwed. When people try to Tozi pass me in BJJ class it never works, and I usually end up triangling them. So I guess I can't really relate. But either way I don't see how striking really changes that situation much. I guess he can arm-punch you in the ribs but you can also elbow him in the temple, or whatever. And if he slips just a little, free triangle.
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I know you're mostly a gi guy, but the tozi pass is a fairly advanced no-gi pass. when executed correctly, it keeps the hips pinned to stop the omaplata/triangle. without the hips pinned the person on top gets triangled.

tozi pass is even more effective in mma when they cock the arm back like they're going to punch, causing the person on bottom to block.
 
redaxe said:
You mean this pass?

19ro9.gif


Obviously it works sometimes, but I'm not really sold on it. And Shad Lierley is a wrestler, he's not exactly known for his guard game. When Reis lifted his head up off the chest and reached back to push down on the leg, a good guard guy would have gotten the triangle--instead of just laying there and trying to hammerfist him in the face.

I asked my instructor about this pass and he straight up told me it is "not a good technique." I'm sure I'll get flamed for this since the Tozi pass is pretty popular here in f12, but I tend to agree that it's a flawed technique. Even flawed techniques work sometimes, though.

This also goes along with the principle that a lazy, weak overhook for you becomes just an underhook for your opponent, and vice versa.

And again, I don't see why you even brought this guard pass up, because training with strikes really doesn't change the situation here. The threat of the Tozi pass is the same regardless of whether it's MMA or just no-gi grappling.
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Wilson Reis has fought the best dudes on the planet, and beaten most using this pass. Are JT Torres,Ryan Hall Jeff Glover and a lot of others that Wilson has beaten not good guard guys?
I understand that you and the guys at your gym suck at this pass, but don't call it a flawed technique because the people you train/compete against are bad at it. I'm done replying to you though because you're obviously pretty ignorant here.
 
BatBoyJG said:
Wilson Reis has fought the best dudes on the planet, and beaten most using this pass. Are JT Torres,Ryan Hall Jeff Glover and a lot of others that Wilson has beaten not good guard guys?
I understand that you and the guys at your gym suck at this pass, but don't call it a flawed technique because the people you train/compete against are bad at it. I'm done replying to you though because you're obviously pretty ignorant here.
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Hey, I know you're 17 years old and all, but it's bad manners to insult people just for disagreeing with you. I'm not picking any fights here, I'm just trying to talk about jiu-jitsu. No need for rudeness.
 
CajunJudoka said:
What belt are you?
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Blue as well. I didnt ask to be a dick, I asked so I could know how to respond. If he was an upper belt, he would have probably known all the advice I had, and would have been looking for technical small detail oriented stuff that I dont know well, and therefor I probably wouldnt have responded.
Since he is roughly the same experience level as me, and we roll with strikes somewhat frequently where I train, I didnt see anything wrong with me giving him some tips.
 
yep i have lots of friends that only do bjj that can come close to submitting me rolling, but when gloves are on have no clue what to do
 
Chim/Tozi pass works on 'me.'

On the surface it may appear to allow the triangle or omoplata, but when done correctly the leg/hips are neutralized by the bodyweight of the guy in the guard. This prevents him from shooting and finishing the triangle/omoplata.
 
BatBoyJG said:
Wilson Reis has fought the best dudes on the planet, and beaten most using this pass. Are JT Torres,Ryan Hall Jeff Glover and a lot of others that Wilson has beaten not good guard guys?
I understand that you and the guys at your gym suck at this pass, but don't call it a flawed technique because the people you train/compete against are bad at it. I'm done replying to you though because you're obviously pretty ignorant here.
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i think people are just intimidated by your input because YOU are actually one of the people in F12 who actually train and just don't sit back watching MMA on their couch and talk out of their ass about it on the internet.

back to the original topic i tend to agree with the OP. you see it all the time... an awesome ground fighter bested by a better striker with an okay ground game. but training with or without strikes doesn't matter in self defense IMO. you're still going to rape the other dude if they don't train.
 
redaxe said:
Hey, I know you're 17 years old and all, but it's bad manners to insult people just for disagreeing with you. I'm not picking any fights here, I'm just trying to talk about jiu-jitsu. No need for rudeness.
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I'm not sure why you think it's flawed (the pass).

Roger even uses it occasionally. It's a very good pass. I remember in another thread you were saying that not many of your team mates try the pass/are good at it. That may contribute to your opinion off it.
 
lechien said:
IMG_11283-JeffMonson-BillCooper.JPG


this is an example of the foot on the hip but with double wrist control instead of neck and overhook.

I am not a big fan of double wrist control for GNP.
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On double wrist grabs you have to keep his wrist close to his stomach or else he will land an elbow.
 
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