If you don't train with GNP you don't have a ground game

[Fedorzilla]

Nogs strategy worked fine in Pride where elbows were illegal. In the UFC continued double wristcontrol is super dangerous because the opponent can use elbow strikes without worrying about your wrist grip.

I do fullcontact fairly regularly these days. The first thing I wanna do is control posture, not so much the hands. My go to is the whizzer from guard. When my opponent starts posturing up from that I have lost control of his posture, his arm and his distance, so I'm putting my foot on his hips and getting ready to stand up. Personally, if I can't keep a grip on my opponents neck from guard, I wont play guard at all. That's my rule.

FYI getting punched in the guard by someone who knows how is fucking scary!

Well, in reality, it's not like Nog's BJJ hasn't worked in the UFC... Nog's standup just hasn't worked in the UFC and his guard hasn't really made an appearance (except for the Silvia fight). He's the kind of guy with ridiculous grip strength for wrist control. The main consideration for me is that if you're on your back -- even with elbows -- the single biggest weapons are the armbar and triangle (http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f2/percentages-submission-types-ending-fights-ufc-1406937/) and wrist control is a much better starting point for either. Especially so with the triangle b/c you can go to either side. If you have an overhook, you can only attack with the triangle to one side and you're severely limited on the armbars. Granted, sweeps and standups are the more workable objectives, but we all know that well-attempted submissions open up more opportunities for sweeps/standups as well.

In any event, you will always have to use a lot of wrist control if you're on bottom, because it's not terribly difficult in no-gi to free a trapped arm from the overhook. I think one thing that really fucks people up is that half-guard becomes so damn frustrating. If you're used to getting the underhook and then posting backwards with your other hand, you just keep getting smacked.

 

[peregrine]

Transitioning from bjj to mma can be tough.
Part of the problem is how you view your goals on the ground. Low level grapplers with low no-gi and gnp history could have problems due to style based playing of using the gi as a pivotal point in their game. These players will be limited in their scope of techniques and understanding of the game and fighting itself.
The higher the level grappler and more articulate teacher will comprehend defending and attacking from the guard or from any position can be prioritized and broken down into multiple principles/concepts/goals.

Sweep/Submit/Standup was mentioned.

Before doing such in mma strikes are involved. In the street weapons and multiples

So we first must stop his ability to hurt us.
In submission grappling including gi and no-gi, the technical goal is generally to attack posture. This is often done by attacking the head to delink the ability of the top player to generate power and to inhibit his movement. Control the head is often seen as synonymous with controlling the opponents posture. Rhetorically if we control the head we will still leave his hands free to punch and elbow us.
Can we control his posture another way?
As someone else mentioned a deep whizzer or deep overhook. This will still allow him to arm punch and access his waistline for weapons with that hand.
What if we work to bicep control on the far hand? (that's my preference)

Regarding the guard.
There are multiple options.
In a weight class based game closed guard may be seen as an option. What if you're giving up a serious amount of strength and weight? plus 50-150lbs?
Do I really want to attach myself to this guy using something like closed guard?
What if there are multiples?(rhetorical qs) Can he slam me?
Guard may be situation dependant.
I personally like feet on the hips, or some sort of butterfly or z guard when strikes are involved.
This includes training with weapons - sticks, dummy knives, simguns. (note- I am a full dog brother so we have done some of the work in practice and live)

Back to sweep/submit/standup
Sweep - with his arm overhooked we have various sweeps, use your feet off his knees as well
Submit - always attempt to offset your hip allow you to attack with submissions, play your guard off his hip and collarbone
Stand up - you're not in closed guard which makes it easier, your feet can create space using his hip, center of his chest.

I will add "Strike" - sweep/submit/stand/strike
Strike - you can use the far hand that is doing wrist control for intermittant strikes timed off his efforts, you can also use your feet depending on the rules of the game, your free hand also has the option of going to weapons. Note there is a double whizzer is you feed it off his punch. It won't hold for long, but potentially long enough to access or sweep.

With regards to mma and striking. It has been proven in most mma matches superior postion allows for strikes to be unanswered. Do not attempt to strike from an inferior position in general. Work to escape then when in dominant control strike.

 

[peregrine]

Another option instead of the overhook is the underhook.(not my preference)
It does allow your opponent atleast one good shot to your skull. But it can often feed his back for you to access.

EDIT- there is a lot of talk about wrist control. Try doing this stuff with no mma gloves on. Wrist control is quite difficult. I prefer the overhook, and lastly the underhook. The opponent still has movement at the elbow, but I am working to reverse or other. My preference would be to overhook his non dominant arm and work to bicep control of the dominant arm. This limits his punches a great deal.

EDIT2- if there is the likelyhood of weapons coming in I go for the wrist and try to be more cognizant of what his hand that I have overhooked is doing(like fishing for something in his waist/pocket).

 

[Shemhazai]

Anybody here ever use a 93 guard type of half guard when rolling with strikes? (I only train sport BJJ, but love to use this position.) To clarify, it employs a foot on the hip with the knee pointing straight up (unlike the Z-guard), while the other foot makes a shallow hook behind the knee, toes pointing down to keep the opponent from stepping out of the open half guard. Striking with the near arm seems very difficult because of the knee, and shin-in-biceps control is also an option on this side, while the far arm can easily be controlled with a 'paw' grip or wrist control, and is vulnerable to Kimuras.

I read somewhere that Rickson suggests a very similar type of guard for MMA, though possibly with both feet on the opponent's hips. While 93 guard is considered a half guard, I feel that it is a much more advantageous position to the bottom player than most half guard positions due to the distance control and offensive options.

 

[Hellboy31]

come back and say this when you are a black belt.

shit, even in straight bjj you don't know shit at blue
-you know a little, but in the grand scheme of bjj you know shit.

Are you a black belt? If not then stfu, the guy's qualified to state his opinion..

The more you post, the less I like you.. You should let the next freezing wind blow you the fcuk out of here.

 

[SPRAWL42]

To be fair, he came across dickish.

Exactly, hes always coming in and stating his opinions telling us which position is the best and that if you dont use strikes while training jiu jitsu you have no ground game, which is completely untrue. If he said hey guys im having trouble with strikes while rolling he would have got much different responses.

 

[peregrine]

Anybody here ever use a 93 guard type of half guard when rolling with strikes? (I only train sport BJJ, but love to use this position.) To clarify, it employs a foot on the hip with the knee pointing straight up (unlike the Z-guard), while the other foot makes a shallow hook behind the knee, toes pointing down to keep the opponent from stepping out of the open half guard. Striking with the near arm seems very difficult because of the knee, and shin-in-biceps control is also an option on this side, while the far arm can easily be controlled with a 'paw' grip or wrist control, and is vulnerable to Kimuras.

I read somewhere that Rickson suggests a very similar type of guard for MMA, though possibly with both feet on the opponent's hips. While 93 guard is considered a half guard, I feel that it is a much more advantageous position to the bottom player than most half guard positions due to the distance control and offensive options.

That is similar or sounds pretty close to what I'm also doing.

 

[ProdigyOfZen]

Well Nova I go to one school for straight gi BJJ. Then I go to another for no gi BJJ/MMA/Muay Thai. So I have been learning GnP with my no gi since I started.

I think once you are on your back you better just clinch up and control the head. It is not going to kill you if the guy is jusy punching you on the side of the head with rabbit punches. Then work your jits from there.

Remember BJJ is and always will be a top game. Only in sport BJJ does it pretty much take on a more bottom game role.

 

[BatBoyJG]

I already said I've never trained with strikes. I train BJJ (gi and no-gi).

Just saying, if you get a tight overhook on one arm, the triangle is there--especially if he tries to punch you with his free arm.

Do you train MMA? Are you going to explain to me why you disagree based on your experience?

In BJJ when shooting for a triangle with an overhook lets say on your left side, you want to be on your right hip or else you will most likely not get the triangle. In mma having your head on the same side as my free arm is not so great elbows,hammer fist and punches are all open. I hate being in the guard when we train MMA, trust me guys its way different. The more exprienced guys that I train with most often are really good at the Chim/Tozi/Wilson pass, so I shy away from the overhook triangle setup at times.

 

[ProdigyOfZen]

mma or street i would get to top. if forced down to gaurd control posture and look to sweep sub right away. but punches to the face can turn a blue belt into a white belt in a hurry.i think training with strikes is something thats important and overlooked

I would also say, depending on the person, punches to the face will turn a blue belt into a black belt in guard and a black belt into a blue belt.

Again that depends on the person. Thats why you see guys in MMA with only blue belts look like beasts on the ground cause they can incorporate bjj with strikes pretty damn effectively. Then you have the opposite like when Marcelo Garcia fought and got his face beat in.

 

[Belatucadros]

In BJJ when shooting for a triangle with an overhook lets say on your left side, you want to be on your right hip or else you will most likely not get the triangle. In mma having your head on the same side as my free arm is not so great elbows,hammer fist and punches are all open. I hate being in the guard when we train MMA, trust me guys its way different. The more exprienced guys that I train with most often are really good at the Chim/Tozi/Wilson pass, so I shy away from the overhook triangle setup at times.

I may be misreading things here.

If you are in my guard and I have an overhook on your right arm (my left side), where are the elbows coming from? Your free hand? I have a free hand too. (or I've got wrist control)

I've used this setup quite a bit (only in the gym mind you), and just like anything you might take some damage but it's not a fight ender if you do.

 

[fourfif**]

To be fair, he came across dickish.

Me? Maybe. But the guy had a valid question. And instead of just answering if you've had experience, it was the 6mo to 2yr grappling know-it-alls that have never trained w/ strikes crapping all over the guy, which is much worse.

 

[BatBoyJG]

I may be misreading things here.

If you are in my guard and I have an overhook on your right arm (my left side), where are the elbows coming from? Your free hand? I have a free hand too. (or I've got wrist control)

I've used this setup quite a bit (only in the gym mind you), and just like anything you might take some damage but it's not a fight ender if you do.

Yeah its not a fight ender, but they are effective. I was just questioning what he said because unlike you or I, he said that locking a triangle from there is just a matter of time, which couldn't be further from the truth.

 

[dirtypablo]

. Then you have the opposite like when Marcelo Garcia fought and got his face beat in.

Marcelo garcia did not get his face beat in. He completely dominated the first round, got caught with a few shots early in the second, and one of them cut him, so the fight was stopped. Frank Mir got his face beat in against lesnar. Marcelo not so much.

 

[redaxe]

In BJJ when shooting for a triangle with an overhook lets say on your left side, you want to be on your right hip or else you will most likely not get the triangle. In mma having your head on the same side as my free arm is not so great elbows,hammer fist and punches are all open. I hate being in the guard when we train MMA, trust me guys its way different. The more exprienced guys that I train with most often are really good at the Chim/Tozi/Wilson pass, so I shy away from the overhook triangle setup at times.

He has a free hand and you have a free hand on the same side, so you can block the bicep or control the wrist. And when he tries to punch/elbow/hammerfist you it creates and opening for you to shoot the triangle.

You guys use the Tozi pass in MMA training? I've never seen it used in MMA before but I think the only way it can happen is if you let him get wrist control on your free arm with his. If he loses that wrist control he is screwed. When people try to Tozi pass me in BJJ class it never works, and I usually end up triangling them. So I guess I can't really relate. But either way I don't see how striking really changes that situation much. I guess he can arm-punch you in the ribs but you can also elbow him in the temple, or whatever. And if he slips just a little, free triangle.

 

[redaxe]

Anybody here ever use a 93 guard type of half guard when rolling with strikes? (I only train sport BJJ, but love to use this position.) To clarify, it employs a foot on the hip with the knee pointing straight up (unlike the Z-guard), while the other foot makes a shallow hook behind the knee, toes pointing down to keep the opponent from stepping out of the open half guard. Striking with the near arm seems very difficult because of the knee, and shin-in-biceps control is also an option on this side, while the far arm can easily be controlled with a 'paw' grip or wrist control, and is vulnerable to Kimuras.

I read somewhere that Rickson suggests a very similar type of guard for MMA, though possibly with both feet on the opponent's hips. While 93 guard is considered a half guard, I feel that it is a much more advantageous position to the bottom player than most half guard positions due to the distance control and offensive options.

I would be hesitant to use "93 guard" or "z-guard" in an MMA situation where all leg locks are legal. Just saying... I wouldn't want to use that guard on someone like Toquinho.

 

[ijustwannasurf]

I would be hesitant to use "93 guard" or "z-guard" in an MMA situation where all leg locks are legal. Just saying... I wouldn't want to use that guard on someone like Toquinho.

Real talk.
If I'm playing open guard with strikes, its going to be butterfly or old-school feet on hips and shin on biceps. Distance is good if you want to stand up, otherwise I'd prefer to be tight and unbalancing them.

 

[bam18211]

I've done some BJJ with GnP involved, the main thing is to have an active guard. Don’t give your opponent a stagnate target. You may still get hit, but more glancing blows than really solid ones. Also keep you head off the mat/ground and close the distance.

 

[D Train]

Like one guy told me early in my MMA training, "Everything is harder when you're getting punched in the face." If you've never trained with strikes, it really is a different game.

 

[Higus]

I recently switched from BJJ to MMA and I have come to the same realization. It is a completely different game when strikes are involved, especially against folks who have been training GnP for a while