If you don't train takedowns, you are not a complete grappler

[deev]

Sorry but this isn't true at all. We train take downs at my gym and if you think my first goal would be to take someone down on concrete, you're out of your mind. If I'm in a fight that HAPPENS to go to the ground, I have the ability to control most people from there - Tell me again how that's useless.

It seems pretty obvious to me that these "call out" threads for BJJ guys are really just butthurt practitioners of other grappling arts who pretty much know that in a submission grappling match, you're probably going to end up tapping to the bjj guy. Go sell crazy somewhere else.

harai goshi onto concrete pretty much ends any fight right there, especially if you can take out a few ribs. Throw - side control - smash their face in as quickly as possible then get the hell back up. Unless you're a trained striker, trading blows with someone whilst standing is a lottery.

Folk always say "yeah but then his mate will kick you when youre down" which is true, but if it's 2 on 1 unless you're a faster runner you're probably going to get a beating anyway, standing or otherwise.

 

[Hellboy31]

A takedown doesn't necessarily mean going down with them. If I was in a self-defence situation my initial aim would be to break his skull open with Osoto Gari and either stay standing or land in KOB. Besides going down with a hard throw or takedown is infinitely better than pulling guard.

In a street fight, there are a lot of things that are better than pulling guard. Most of the times, street fights are messy and people can end. The guy who knows BJJ may or may not be the one to initiate it going to the ground but if it does end up there, I'm much happier knowing that I know jiu jitsu (sport or otherwise). I'm not saying takedowns aren't a huge asset to have both in competition and self defense but to say jiu jitsu is useless for self defense unless you're a takedown artist is wrong.

 

[deev]

A takedown doesn't necessarily mean going down with them. If I was in a self-defence situation my initial aim would be to break his skull open with Osoto Gari and either stay standing or land in KOB. Besides going down with a hard throw or takedown is infinitely better than pulling guard.

good old osoto with 2 a hand grabbing his face, nasty.

 

[richmFTW]

I like thrips and throws over a traditional takedown but they are an essential part of the game. Last time we did a takedown it was a shoot to trip down. Good shit.

 

[Centaur]

Doing rolls from standing is just not practical in many gyms as guys can get easily injured from takedowns on limited mat space and they can bump into each other a lot. We bump into each other already during rolls and it would be a lot more damaging if people were standing up doing takedowns and sprawling.

However, some classes we have a line up where they stand 3 or 4 guys in the middle to rotate partners with takedowns etc, it works but I guess its not appropriate for those whole-class rolling sessions

This is very true. I was rolling once and on my back and a guy next to me did a judo throw of some kind. The guy getting thrown came up and over and his heal landed right on the side of my skull. A couple inches lower and I could have been right fucked.

 

[HEAVY GRAPPLER]

Strongly agree. It is obvious, but it's OK to say it once in a while.

Currently splitting my training 60/40 BJJ and Judo. I should really put more time into judo since I have more experience w BJJ, but I am not a perfect person.

In a few years, I think I am going to have to seek out some Sambo to get leglock training, too.

 

[primaxopt]

Here's the way I see BJJ. It's just a way to focus on the ground aspect of a fight. Just as wrestling and judo are ways to focus on the takedown/standing to ground transition phase of a fight. You don't do everything at once because there's no way to get better at any one specific aspect. And you don't train with strikes in the beginning for the same reason. But eventually you train BJJ with strikes, and then judo/wrestling with strikes, so you learn to set things up with strikes and discard some techniques that are not compatible with striking.

We look down on TKD because they don't punch and on judo newaza because most people just turtle up and get stood up when the fight goes to the ground. Honestly, being capable of only pulling guard is no different. Sweeps an subs from guard are obviously very practical -- as are TKD kicks. But without learning takedowns, you're missing a huge part of your game, just as the TKD guy is missing the whole punching aspect.

 

[Nasiello]

Meh, after watching a guy from my gym dominate his divisions with guard pulls and sweeps, it's not as though you can't form a game from there.

Not everyone has a blast double, or the ability to rock a throw from the clinch, but if someone can work their game around what they are good at, who are you to call them anything but a complete grappler?

I'd rather know the 5 things that will result in me ending up victorious, or at least in a significantly better position, than knowing 50 things that I haven't gotten extremely proficient in.

 

[OhTheHumanity]

Looks like there is some disagreement.

Think about it like Olympic TKD. Here on f12, we widely bash it as an ineffective TMA because they don't really punch and are focused on point scoring with kicks. Yet it started out as a more practical stand up style. Things like starting on the knees and guys going for a double guard pull are similar. It's not like sweeps are useless in a fight, but it's getting to the point where the basic way of competing with these strategies has no relevance to actual fighting.

It's poisonous to separate BJJ and wrestling into situational grappling arts imo. BJJ includes groundwork, clinchwork, takedowns, and takedown defense. If it didn't, there would be no points awarded for those types of offense in competition! It sucks that most gyms, mine included, don't focus on transitioning between standing and groundwork.

 

[Shemhazai]

I love training and learning takedowns, even though open guard is probably the strongest part of my game. For me it's not important what I might need in an IBJJF tournament (though I'm over 200 lbs, so top position matters a bit in my weight class), I just want to be a complete grappler, and having a modicum of wrestling ability is also paramount when it comes to self defense (and in my case, security work) applications.

 

[snoop dogg***]

I train takedowns. I think every one should train takedowns.

But I always pull guard.

ditto. I wrestled for 5 years. started bjj and always used tds. it wasnt until i got my 2nd striple blue when i started pulling guard. i do both in tourneys. but its good to be well rounded

 

[primaxopt]

Yes, exactly how I see it.

I love training and learning takedowns, even though open guard is probably the strongest part of my game. For me it's not important what I might need in an IBJJF tournament (though I'm over 200 lbs, so top position matters a bit in my weight class), I just want to be a complete grappler, and having a modicum of wrestling ability is also paramount when it comes to self defense (and in my case, security work) applications.

 

[jclaudevandamme]

And?
If you train ground and takedowns from clinch you are not a complete grappler too.
If you train ground and takedowns coming from shoots you are not a complete grappler too.
If you train takedowns from clinch and shoots you are not a complete grappler too.
Now some kid will say that if you do not train in gi you are not a complete grappler.
Other kid will say that if you do not also train how to deal with a striking opponent you are a g-word a-word f-word that will get his ass beaten in a real fight and you should not call yourself a grappler because you are not credit to the style.

Not everyone got time to train takedowns from clinch with and without the gi, to train takedowns coming from a shoot grabbing the legs, to train ground grappling with and without the gi. Judokas are grapplers, Wrestlers are grapplers, Jiu Jiteiros (which is the english term for someone training BJJ?) are grapplers.

 

[Spoonman7]

takedowns are integral to grappling, I have made it a point to work on my takedowns this year.

 

[brollikk]

Thread starter is correct, but the thing is in tournaments if you aren't really good at takedowns and/or wrestling and you botch a takedown... the punishment is pretty severe. I feel like this is one of the main reasons why a lot of people just say screw it and never really learn it for BJJ.

 

[HIMBOB]

Off Topic,
Does anyone else here suck at knee wrestling but is OK at takedowns??

But that I mean people I can take down with consistentcy often seem to get the better of me on the knees.
Might be because I am tall and use a fair few trips but yeah its kinda strange.