If reach doesn't matter, explain Tim Sylvia

[Taric]

what???

Not a ridiculous claim at all. Those fighters listed aren't exactly murderers.

 

[Combat Wombatt]

Explain Struve getting KOed many times.

Someone who doesn't utilize his reach well.




Remember his flying knee debauch? Ouch.

 

[Wayweary]

If you're a good fighter and able to use your reach well then it's a very strong attribute. Shorter fighters can still reach the top though (no pun intended) since shorter arms have an easier time finding space on the inside.

Fighting is about technique, fortitude, intelligence, physical attributes, and being able to use all of the above efficiently. A short fighter won't win a war of jabs and oblique kicks against someone like Jones, no, but if they can find an angle they can blitz him. If reachier fighters where inherently better than the divisional champions would reflect this. Instead most of them - besides Jones who is on the tall end and Cain who might be on the short end - are about average for their weight class. There are advantages and disadvantages to both builds.

Reach is mainly advantageous in terms of stand up fighting. A number of champions rely largely on grappling for their success.

Jones and Anderson are two of the most dominant fighters in UFC history noted for their ability to out strike and both own a reach advantage over all and almost all of their opponents in their weight class, respectively. In fact, one of the few people Anderson fought at MW that had greater reach than him was Chris Wiedman.

You've got GSP but he was not successful due to his stand up to the same extent. He was dominant more so in wrestling and in mixing his skill sets together to win fights. His striking was a part of his game but not what made him dominate in and of itself. None the less, he owned a reach advantage over everyone he fought but Condit, Mayhem and Nick Diaz (whose reach is a known factor in his successful striking), and actually had equal reach with the latter two. Basically, he had the reach of a MW. Notably, he was able to out jab a number of his shorter-reached opponents to great effect.

Then you had Tim Sylvia who was a major problem to opponents due to his long limbs. Even when someone like Monson got him to the ground, he was able to utilize his great reach advantage to dish out a lot of damage from the bottom/guard with relative safety from Monson's GNP. That's the sort of thing a large reach disparity can give you.

Another guy known to be dominant due to his ability to Strike was Liddell. The only guy I could find that Chuck Liddell didn't have a reach advantage over that he ever fought was Allistair Overreem although there were a couple of fighters going way far back I couldn't find reaches for.

In the WEC, one of the dominant fighters and champions before he slowed down and lost his chin was Miguel Torres. For his weight class, his reach was huge and was a major factor in his success.

I would bet that most highly successful strikers have had a reach advantage and certainly not a disadvantage over a majority of their opponents. This is not a hard and fast rule by any means, but the trend seems rather clear to me, indicating how much of an advantage reach truly is in terms of stand-up striking.

 

[Elysianwing]

Speaking of underrated, I hate how losing to randy exposes Tim somehow.

It doesn't expose Tim, it just illustrates that Tim's reach wasn't the end-all be-all factor with regards to his winning fights.

Adrie never beats a prime tim.
Reem would get knocked out.
He already beat rothwell.
Nelson would get outboxed

AA did beat prime Tim, and were it not for a throat punch he'd have beaten Tim in the rematch as well, imo.

 

[Combat Wombatt]

Reach is mainly advantageous in terms of stand up fighting. A number of champions rely largely on grappling for their success.

Jones and Anderson are two of the most dominant fighters in UFC history noted for their ability to out strike and both own a reach advantage over all and almost all of their opponents in their weight class, respectively. In fact, one of the few people Anderson fought at MW that had greater reach than him was Chris Wiedman.

You've got GSP but he was not successful due to his stand up to the same extent. He was dominant more so in wrestling and in mixing his skill sets together to win fights. His striking was a part of his game but not what made him dominate in and of itself. None the less, he owned a reach advantage over everyone he fought but Condit, Mayhem and Nick Diaz (whose reach is a known factor in his successful striking), and actually had equal reach with the latter two. Basically, he had the reach of a MW. Notably, he was able to out jab a number of his shorter-reached opponents to great effect.

Then you had Tim Sylvia who was a major problem to opponents due to his long limbs. Even when someone like Monson got him to the ground, he was able to utilize his great reach advantage to dish out a lot of damage from the bottom/guard with relative safety from Monson's GNP. That's the sort of thing a large reach disparity can give you.

Another guy known to be dominant due to his ability to Strike was Liddell. The only guy I could find that Chuck Liddell didn't have a reach advantage over that he ever fought was Allistair Overreem although there were a couple of fighters going way far back I couldn't find reaches for.

In the WEC, one of the dominant fighters and champions before he slowed down and lost his chin was Miguel Torres. For his weight class, his reach was huge and was a major factor in his success.

I would bet that most highly successful strikers have had a reach advantage and certainly not a disadvantage over a majority of their opponents. This is not a hard and fast rule by any means, but the trend seems rather clear to me, indicating how much of an advantage reach truly is in terms of stand-up striking.

Great post.





Yes, reach helps a lot also for GnP in the guard or when you are on your back and defending. People forget that part too.




Lesnar's reach advantage over Couture certainly helped him drop Randy and Randy said so.

 

[we rowdy]

Silvia used straight punches and countered well.
Not everyone with reach does that, Jones primarily being one of them. He's normally not a counter a puncher, sans the machida fight, and his footwork is horrible.

He wins because he's fucking good at fighting. End of story.

what?

jesus of all the dumb shit being posted here

 

[Bvr]

Don't discount Sylvia, the man was a PHENOMENON. Greatest HW champ in UFC history and it wasn't just because of his reach, dude basically shit on the opposition

What you did there. I see it

 

[Da Speeit]

what?

jesus of all the dumb shit being posted here

Explain this fantastical, unequivocal advantage that reach has. A lot of you don't understand the disadvantages that come with it. Reach itself means VERY little and can hamper fighters against smaller opponents. But I guess Mike Tyson didn't exist.

 

[DoctorTaco]

Explain this fantastical, unequivocal advantage that reach has. A lot of you don't understand the disadvantages that come with it. Reach itself means VERY little and can hamper fighters against smaller opponents. But I guess Mike Tyson didn't exist.

I once fought a guy who was a HS wrestling coach and a full 8" shorter than me. It was fucking awful

 

[RepairManManMan]

It doesn't expose Tim, it just illustrates that Tim's reach wasn't the end-all be-all factor with regards to his winning fights.



AA did beat prime Tim, and were it not for a throat punch he'd have beaten Tim in the rematch as well, imo.

Tim proved he was the better fighter in their 3rd match.

 

[Elysianwing]

Tim proved he was the better fighter in their 3rd match.

No he didn't. That fight was pure shit, and Andrei was injured in it(which more people would know about, if Andrei was less of a badass and reported it).

 

[RepairManManMan]

Well agree to disagree

 

[Milgrim]

Tim's success was not "All because of his reach." He was a good HW at a time when good was good enough to hold the belt.

 

[Da Speeit]

I once fought a guy who was a HS wrestling coach and a full 8" shorter than me. It was fucking awful

Smaller opponents have an advantage over lanky guys. It's really difficult to deal with.

 

[Tsar]

tim sylvia is proof that reach doesn't matter that much. but if you want to make the opposite argument go ahead and work it out a bit more.

he lost to guys much much smaller than him, with much shorter reach--couture, mercer, fedor, abe wagner.

 

[Bob Gray]

Silvia used straight punches and countered well.
Not everyone with reach does that, Jones primarily being one of them. He's normally not a counter a puncher, sans the machida fight, and his footwork is horrible.

He wins because he's fucking good at fighting. End of story.

I think most people don't realize just how accurate such a simple statement is. Jones uses what he has as effectively as possible. His fight I.Q. is insane. Somebody like Melvin Guillard can have all the physical gifts possible to be elite, but he doesn't have the mentality to utilize it effectively. That's what guys like Jones, Anderson, GSP, etc have. You can't distill it down to one physical attribute.

 

[Elysianwing]

I think most people don't realize just how accurate such a simple statement is. Jones uses what he has as effectively as possible. His fight I.Q. is insane. Somebody like Melvin Guillard can have all the physical gifts possible to be elite, but he doesn't have the mentality to utilize it effectively. That's what guys like Jones, Anderson, GSP, etc have. You can't distill it down to one physical attribute.

Good post.

 

[Halge]

Height is an asset. But it is a rare one, and the chances of finding a fighter with height combined with all other assets required to make a top fighter are slim.

PS: Bravo on the shit joke.

 

[Miiiiiiighty]

You are 100% correct TS , of all physical assests to striking sports, reach is the most important one .
Its also second to technique only when everything is taken in consideration, 3d being speed imho
You Can t improve it and it never deteriorates...

 

[estranged]

if u have good movement it can compensate reach