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If only half of America is properly vaccinated, where are the epidemics?

Discussion in 'The War Room' started by Lord Coke, Sep 9, 2018.

  1. Lord Coke Red Belt

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    I don't know very much about medical science so I don't have the background to know whether this article is accurate or not. I am hoping that some of the posters with medical training can take a look at this. If so it makes some of the policy arguments behind mandatory mass vaccinations invalid. @Greoric @Lubaolong

    http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-b...-america-is-properly-vaccinated-where-are-the

     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2018
  2. Trotsky Steel Belt

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    Yikes. This entire premise (unsurprisingly from a "natural medicine" figure), that a theory is not absolutely perfect and is therefore invalid, is silly and is unfortunately a philosophical staple of anti-vaxxers and basically any reactionary dissident. You can even see it in non-scientific political waves (such as: "this one article by NYT had an obscure factual inconsistency and therefore all of their findings can be dismissed without scrutiny.")

    Likewise, the expectation that all of the laymen public should be able to converse on the issue with the nuance of a scientist, and not rely on scientific consensus through government agency, is silly.

    Non-compliance is a public health threat. It just is. You can argue about the scope or size of the threat, but to deny the relationship between vaccination and herd immunity is kind of silly.


    And protecting against pseudo-science-backed offerings by the pharmaceutical industry is what government agencies like the FDA are meant for: consulting impartial scientific professionals to properly vet medicine.

    Also, the author's organization (Alliance for Natural Health) has recently taken a stance on the recent glyphosate revelations that was not particularly well received by the scientific community.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/08/glyphosate-breakfast-controversy/567784/

    Lastly, particularly relevant to this cross section (MMA fans and pseudo/science) I really like following this guy on Facebook. He goes after pseudoscientists, chemical alarmists, and naturalists pretty hardcore and is funny about it. And he's somewhat of a bro.
    [​IMG]
    https://www.facebook.com/therealcrediblehulk/
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2018
  3. Trotsky Steel Belt

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    @alanb Sorry to bombard you with pics/links in the first post - I know you're coming about this topic in good faith.

    I likewise don't have a deep scientific pedigree and I can't speak all that insightfully on the science, as much as I can on some of the flaws in the author's reasoning (the failure to consider the social habits of senior citizens also comes to mind). I just happened to be perusing the above referenced outlet when I saw this thread and thought I'd throw some free advertisement his way. He's a pretty nonpartisan and humorous guy to follow.
     
  4. Phr3121 Banned Banned

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    Not sure about your source, but it sounds like 'propaganda' bullshit to me:

    "Vaccines may have a place in our medical arsenal, but they are not the silver bullet they’re portrayed to be. Year after year the pharmaceutical industry, looking for lucrative new profit centers, churns out new vaccines. They use pseudo-science to convince the public that these products are safe and effective, and they use public shaming to convince the citizenry that non-compliance is a public health threat. This entire racket completely falls apart with a close examination of the herd immunity myth. Until we are honest in our assessment of both the safety and efficacy of vaccines, kids will continue to be hurt, rights will continue to be trampled, and mythology will continue to trump science."

    The efficacy, or performance, of a vaccine is dependent on a number of factors:
    • The disease itself (for some diseases vaccination performs better than for others).
    • The strain of vaccine (some vaccines are specific to, or at least most effective against, particular strains of the disease)..
    • Whether the vaccination schedule has been properly observed.
    • Idiosyncratic response to vaccination; some individuals are 'non-responders' to certain vaccines, meaning that they do not generate antibodies even after being vaccinated correctly.
    • Assorted factors such as ethnicity, age, or genetic predisposition.
    In the United States, vaccine has pretty much eradicated the following diseases:
    • Smallpox
    • Rinderpest
    • Polio
    • Malaria
    • Lymphatic filariasis
     
  5. Lord Coke Red Belt

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    The reason I am taking this article somewhat seriously is because it is from the Hill which I think is a legitimate publication. Or at least the Hill's blog. I'd like to think they would not publish something that is completely inaccurate. This is one of those threads where I am just throwing something out there to learn rather than taking a particular position on anything.
     
  6. Phr3121 Banned Banned

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    If only half of America is properly vaccinated, where are the epidemics?

    By Gretchen DuBeau — 09/13/16 03:25 PM EDT
    The views expressed by contributors are their own and not the view of The Hill

    @alanb - read the underlined portion above. Sounds more like an editorial piece with a lot of bias to it.
     
  7. Trotsky Steel Belt

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    I think the piece is very flawed, just in terms of its reasoning and overall approach to the subject, but I wouldn't say it's completely inaccurate, nor is it from some per se bunk source. The woman is a notable figure in her...err, movement.

    However, the big factual citation that underpins her position is from Russell Blaylock, so I would take it with a large dose of caution. That guy is a quack. He was one of the "OBAMACARE DEATH PANELS!" folks. So I wouldn't be surprised if his statement is inaccurate.

    https://geneticliteracyproject.org/glp-facts/russell-blaylock/
     
  8. PhitePhan Purple Belt

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    The article is somewhat sensational and the authors fall into the same trap many pro-vax folks do. They use a broad brush to paint all "Vaccines," the same, and in the process fail to consider very important nuances and risk/benefits.

    Nonetheless, it seems that the underlying point of the article has some merit and I haven't seen a rebuttal to this important argument. It seems the theory of herd immunity needs to be adjusted, obviously. Regardless, for some diseases vaccination is obviously very important in stopping the spread, if that is your primary goal. For example, vaccination for measles, an airborne disease, is more critical in stopping spread than vaccination say for polio, which is spread by oral fecal transmission.

    This topic is fascinating (epidemiology of diseases and vaccination), unfortunately it is difficult to find unbiased information. More than anything though, is the troubling lack of real objective information related to risk/benefit. The reality is that , people are harmed by vaccination at a rate almost certainty much higher than generally accepted. In my opinion, any scientifically minded person would have to admit that the vaccination program is a giant experiment. While this might be an acceptable risk to some, in my opinion the design and implementation of this experiment is very flawed and needlessly harmful.
     
  9. Lubaolong A natural consequence of gamma radiation

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    Vaccines are not 100 percent effective. Waning immunity means vaccinated people might still get sick. A Google search tells me that 5 years after the last pertussis shot, about 30% of kids are susceptible again (probably why the tdap booster is given around this age). People who are not vaccinated are at way higher risk of getting pertussis than the vaccinated kids. Almost all kids in the US get the full series of pertussis vaccines, so it's not surprising that most pertussis cases occur in vaccinated people. Doesn't mean the vaccine doesn't work. It's just means that almost everyone is vaccinated but the vaccines don't offer guaranteed protection forever.
     
  10. Lubaolong A natural consequence of gamma radiation

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  11. Ruprecht Hands Of The Judges Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    It's an opinion article by Gretchen Dubeau of the Alliance for Natural Health and formerly of the board of the Integrative Medicine Consortium.

    Anti-vax headquarters in other words.
     
  12. Beechwood Purple Belt

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    For some reason it has become controversial for some to mention this, but in many health books and even some TV programs discuss the great impact improved sanitation and improved food quality has had on eliminating many deadly infectious diseases of the past. Basically having improved natural immune systems has kept us from having a large disease outbreak.

    We appear to be seeing this being played out in Venezuela now. With food becoming scares, starvation more common, people's immune systems are being hurt. With weakened immune systems, that has led to reports of increased infectious diseases spreading in Venezuela.

    From a historical stand point this is a book that I enjoyed. It goes into detail on the rolls played with improved sanitation, food quality, vaccines, & antibiotics with infectious diseases.

    https://www.amazon.com/Dissolving-I...preST=_SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc=srch
     
  13. Pelosi2020 Green Belt

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    My household has been vaccine-free for over 10 years. Some of these outbreaks we’ve seen first hand. It was an eye opener watching my kids’ vaccinated classmates and vaccinated teachers catch the mumps. The vaccines are weak (it is debatable whether they have always been weak or whether the newer ones are designed weaker deliberately). What is less debatable as that article mentions, is that plenty of fully vaccinated people are caught up in these outbreaks. One would naturally assume that the combination of weak vaccines and people not taking them would be a powder-keg, right?

    1) Ask around. Take the most pro-vaccine people you know and GRILL them on the booster schedules. Are they all up to date? Very rarely are they up to date on DPT, MMR, and many totally ignore the flu shot.

    2) Next casually ask all the doctors you meet, “off the record of course.....do you take all the boosters”? If they say, no, ask if they still take vaccines. In my experience about half of the doctors I’ve talked with do not take vaccines themselves.
     
  14. tonni 2019 Snitch of the Year

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  15. EndlessCritic Gold Belt

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    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4108111/

     
  16. Greoric Banned Banned

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    This a great thread. Yeah if the numbers are right 50% vaccination rate isn't enough to support herd immunity, which is around 90% vaccination rate or so. With that said we're an especially hygenic civilization as compared to historically, and we're still, at the moment, winning the battle against bacteria with antibiotics.

    With that said, I just went to a conference talk with a Virologist mentioning we're set up for the next flu pandemic that could wreck shit for everyone (I'm more optimistic in person I sware). Happy sunday everyone!
     
  17. NakamuraNutShot Trumptastic Voyage Banned

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    FYI,

    No one here does, either.

    So...this should be good.
     
  18. NakamuraNutShot Trumptastic Voyage Banned

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    Not sure how many here have children, or have ever had sex for that matter.

    It makes me wonder, however, when doctors tell me that the guidelines they once prescribed to assist child developement are outdated, and should immediately be replaced with these “new” guidelines!

    Walkers, for example...doctors swore by them only 10 years ago...now, they advise new parents to stay the hell away from those death traps!

    C’mon, science!
     
  19. all caps Gold Belt

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    I'm wondering why pro vax people get so pissed off at anti vaxxers. If you or your kid is vaccinated, arent unvaccinated people no threat? Otherwise what is the point of being vaccinated?
     
  20. Falsedawn Your favorite poster's favorite poster Platinum Member

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    Because lacking vaccinations kills people. Not surprised a lack of empathy is in your wheelhouse.
     

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