If Manny beats Spence and Crawford is he the best WW of all time?

Discussion in 'Boxing Discussion' started by Destino2018, Jul 20, 2019.

  1. JayE

    JayE Red Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2016
    Messages:
    8,754
    Likes Received:
    11,876
    Leonard's lack of quantity does hold him back a bit. The quality of his wins matches up with pretty much anyone in history, but he doesn't have a ton of quantity. It depends what one prefers, I guess.
     
  2. ssx

    ssx Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2006
    Messages:
    2,964
    Likes Received:
    857
    Location:
    Hawaii
    If he finds a way to beat Spence and Crawford, he'd have a reasonable argument to claim it. Even with the loss to Floyd. That said, I don't see any way he beats either guy at this stage. I do think he should go after the Floyd rematch and would give him a better chance this time around.
    I do think Pac has as good a resume on the ATG pound for pound ranking as anyone. If you look at his resume and see who he has beaten, it compares favorably with anyone in history. Also consider, Manny is 40 years old and beating guys like Thurman who are naturally 3-4 weight classes bigger than him. Heck even guys like JMM, Morales and Barrera are naturally 1-2 classes bigger than Pac.
     
    Guitardude likes this.
  3. JayE

    JayE Red Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2016
    Messages:
    8,754
    Likes Received:
    11,876
    I don't think I'd say Marquez, Morales, or Barrera are naturally bigger than Pac. Pac is short, but he's got a ton of weight in his lower body and he cut fairly significant amounts of weight all the way up to LW. He was rehydrating more than 15 pounds at SFW.
     
    Mr.Maelstrom and DeJulez like this.
  4. PHATV

    PHATV FREE @RR!!! Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2006
    Messages:
    23,739
    Likes Received:
    13,295
    Location:
    Cincinnati
    This. I've always seen it as a 9-3, 8-4 fight at best in Floyd's favor. Back when they first started the chatter, when it happened the first time, now, doesn't matter. Different skill set and Floyd is literally an ATG and debatable top or near top of the list. That just isn't the case with Manny, even though he is definitely an ATG and had a spectacular career.

    He will be president one day, though. And that's something (I hope) Floyd will never be able to say.
     
  5. CodeBreaker

    CodeBreaker What belt?

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2017
    Messages:
    2,388
    Likes Received:
    2,225
    Location:
    Manila
    Lol Pac will never be president here in the Philippines
     
  6. Guitardude

    Guitardude Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2009
    Messages:
    328
    Likes Received:
    113
    Everyone? lol don't make me laugh





    https://www.boxnation.com/boxing-news/is-manny-pacquiao-s-legacy-better-than-floyd-mayweather-s/

    Basically, what I'm saying is it's still hotly debated who had the greater career, and Manny definitely added a huge statement tonight that he far surpasses Floyd in greatness.
     
  7. SaiWa

    SaiWa Black Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    6,782
    Likes Received:
    8,087
    And how many fighters have won 4 major titles (different weight classes) from the original eight weight divisions? Pac was the first to do it...
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2019
    Forsher likes this.
  8. Scott Stapp

    Scott Stapp Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2013
    Messages:
    546
    Likes Received:
    54
    They never fought in their prime so the Floyd fight is irrelevant. Watching two old guys fight does nothing for me. If he beats Spence I'd consider it. Or if he rematches Floyd and there's a KO for either of them, I might also reconsider either.
     
  9. DeJulez

    DeJulez Broner Brodie

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2014
    Messages:
    12,758
    Likes Received:
    10,888
    Well, Duran also beat SRL once, and it was in the first fight they had against each other, and it was SRL's first defeat.
    So you can make an argument using that, and to me is the only reason you can entertain it.
    I think SRL is better, but really you can argue p4p for Duran. But SRL is better P4P, but it is debatable.

    Now, that thinking is reserved for those two.
    Pacquiao should not be ahead of Floyd on anyones lists.
    Floyd is flat out a better boxer, and thats been proven many times over.
    Floyd, will be mentioned with the Alis, the Robinsons, the Louis's, when history looks back.
    Pacquiao will be the number #2.
     
  10. don't quote me!

    don't quote me! Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2018
    Messages:
    311
    Likes Received:
    170
    if it's hotly debated, as you say, please post some links to all time reputable boxing lists, placing pacquaio above floyd, you posted 3 lists with duran above sugar, please do the same for manny, to help convince us that manny and floyd is STILL a hotly debated topic, as I don't think it is and I'm skeptical that you will be able to
     
  11. pakimahi

    pakimahi Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2006
    Messages:
    2,777
    Likes Received:
    213
    Location:
    SaitamaSuperArena
    He is not beating Crawford. Crawford stops Pac
     
  12. Guitardude

    Guitardude Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2009
    Messages:
    328
    Likes Received:
    113
    So you're saying if Pacquiao beat Mayweather once and then gets TKO'ed by him that means the same as arguably losing to him when Pac had one arm, past his prime, and with Floyd juicing? lol GTFO. And nooo Floyd will be FAR from those names, while Pac will be amongst them. You know very little about boxing history or the ranking system for that matter if you think that's the case.

    http://www.espn.com/sports/boxing/greatest/featureVideo?page=greatest110

    Look at this list and the number of losses these warriors have. Rocky Marciano was 49-0 and BEAT/TKO'ed the number 4 guy on the list (Joe Louis) but isn't even in the top 10! Boxing ranking is PURELY based on accomplishments, and in that realm, Pac is greater than Floyd by a mile.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
    Forsher likes this.
  13. Guitardude

    Guitardude Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2009
    Messages:
    328
    Likes Received:
    113
    It's hard to find reputable/official lists with them in it because analysts unfairly tend to favor old school fighters more, and they're both still very fresh in people's minds at this point. Pac hasn't even retired yet. But if you go to ANY boxing forum, it's not even CLOSE to people saying Floyd is greater than Pac. In fact, guys like Kellerman, literally the boxing guy from ESPN, thinks Pac is in the top 5-10 while Floyd isn't even in the top 10.
     
    Forsher likes this.
  14. mozfonky

    mozfonky We oughta be fightin' a bottle of Geritol.

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,101
    Likes Received:
    3,276
    Location:
    x
    welterweight? you are aware that robinson was in his prime as a welter aren't you?
     
    Mr.Maelstrom likes this.
  15. don't quote me!

    don't quote me! Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2018
    Messages:
    311
    Likes Received:
    170
    hard??
    You effortlessly went on list posting frenzy a few days ago, each one with Floyd looking down on Manny.

    What is hard is finding lists with manny ahead of floyd, as these lists tend to be done by a group of experts, so outliers(kellerman) and internet trolls get shouted down.

    I dared you to find some lists and you failed, not because they aren't old school, but because almost everyone past school age knows floyd is better than manny, there is no debate!
     
  16. Guitardude

    Guitardude Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2009
    Messages:
    328
    Likes Received:
    113
    I actually DID list an expert (Kellerman) and even posted a video of Hollyfield, who thought Manny BEAT Floyd in their fight. Kellerman is THE expert boxing guy from ESPN, the biggest sports network on TV. And this was BEFORE Manny's win over Thurman, after which Kellerman put Manny at #5-10 (with Floyd outside the top 10).

    What I meant regarding the lists is that it's too early to include them on ATG lists because Manny hasn't even retired yet! And Floyd just recently retired, so many ATG lists won't include them on it. Part of the reason is probably experts' bias toward older fighters. Even in those 2 lists I sent you, Manny and Floyd were neck and neck, essentially at the same place on ATG lists. And your definition of "better than" needs some work.

    Did Floyd win titles in 8 different weight classes, 5 lineal weight classes, 4 traditional weight classes? Did Floyd beat a prime, undefeated lion at the age of 40? I'll tell you what Floyd's better at - fighting boxers not in their prime, fighting non-boxers, using roids, and running around the ring clinching/not fighting.
     
    Forsher likes this.
  17. don't quote me!

    don't quote me! Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2018
    Messages:
    311
    Likes Received:
    170
    BOGUS EXCUSE 1
    Incredible!! Someone doubted your assertion that Duran was considered better than SRL, and you expertly posted 3 (not 2) lists to counter this idea. Incidently, all 3 of those lists had floyd ahead of manny, thus YOU FOUND MULTIPLE LISTS INCLUDING FLOYD AND MANNY WITHOUT EVEN TRYING TO LOOK FOR THEM. Your new assertion that "it's hard to find" such lists including, has already been undermined BY YOURSELF, even before you conjured up such a bogus excuse. It's easy to find, but hard to find lists placing Manny above Floyd, because people aren't stupid. Same reason it's hard to find lists placing Foreman above Ali.

    BOGUS EXCUSE 2
    They were not neck and neck, 1 was ahead of the other, on every list. It may have been close, but there was a winner. Should we say Thurman vs pacquaio was neck and neck because it was close. Your definition of neck and neck needs some work, being better across to board , is not neck and neck. FLoyd is head and shoulders above manny and your lists help illustrate that .

    BOGUS EXCUSE 3
    I want a list, as this would require considered thought, usually evident criteria and usually a team of people. When you wanted to show how people thought Duran was better than SRL, you didn't post a video of 1 guy, stumbling around outside an arena. I press you for a list and all you give is Kellerman's CV, you should know he works for Espn and they were 1 of the lists that you posted, so likely his opinion was noted and shouted down by more learned people.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2019
  18. BillytheFish

    BillytheFish Double Yellow Card Double Yellow Card

    Joined:
    May 27, 2017
    Messages:
    4,611
    Likes Received:
    6,638
    Manny aint fighting Spence- EVER. No fucking way.
     
  19. DeJulez

    DeJulez Broner Brodie

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2014
    Messages:
    12,758
    Likes Received:
    10,888
    No. Joe Louis was 137 years old when they fought. No where near his prime, and had already lost the title to Ezzard Charles.
    Floyd is older than Manny, and beat Manny and it wasnt close.
    Mayweather also has a record of 26 consecutive wins in world title fights (10 by KO), 23 wins (9 KOs) in lineal title fights, 24 wins (7 KOs) against former or current world titlists, 12 wins (3 KOs) against former or current lineal champions, and 2 wins (1 KO) against
    Boxing Hall of Fame inductees which clearly will go up when others he has beaten get inducted.
     
  20. Jonny Ninja

    Jonny Ninja Black Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2011
    Messages:
    6,304
    Likes Received:
    5,080
    Location:
    Near London
    I would’ve laughed you! I wouldn’t now, I thought he was too much on the slide to beat Thurman. Still don’t see him beating Crawford or spence at his age but I wouldn’t write him off now
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.