If a Askren & Masvidal rematch how different would the fight be (likelihood of repetition)

[GSP Rush]

Nah fam, you a salty fan.

Aye dude, not biting, move on.

 

[CPH]

Lawler went out, nothing controversial about that, people can spin that as much as they like but his arm dropped, he went limp, he went out, he lost.

This has been gone over so many times though and people who don't like Askren (which I'm not specifically aiming at you by the way) will say this and use this excuse yet when push comes to shove Askren won that fight fair and square.

Askren came into the UFC because he was pretty much asked to, they had Till baiting him for however long before hand and him fighting Lawler there is nothing to take away from the value of his win, he beat him, it doesn't matter what went on in the Lawler and Colby fight, he was fighting Askren at the time and Askren won.

Askren has shown nothing in regards to having good stand up, not a thing and he's very vulnerable which isn't good but that's specifically pointing out his weaker sides and using that where as if you wanted to you could actually find very strong points too that really benefit him and make him legit in the competition, this is of course, if you want to but you know they are there.

Also we can talk about that but why not bring up the fact that he's clearly tough as nails when it comes to taking a beating, not just taking a beating but also being slammed on his head and then recovering from that AND coming back AND winning the fight, why is that not mentioned either?

Do you not think he could take those kinda punches from Masvidal cause quite honestly, Lawlers punches (plus the slam on the head) was more brutal than anything we've seen Masvidal do in the UFC, sure he's done some fantastic knock out's (Till for example is phenomenal) but still, why do you think Masvidal's punches would knock him out so easily after we saw what he sustained from Lawler?

I've already explained how the previous fight was a whole credit to Masvidal there and that was Ben's fuck up completely, the idiot went straight in and shot and pretty much ran into that knee, something he can and probably has learned from.

In regards to the Lawler rematch, he actually DID say he would fight him again when he listed out a list of fighters on Ariel Helwani's show a couple of weeks after that fight, the only reason he wasn't interested in the fight again is because he didn't even want it in the first place, but remember HE was drafted to the UFC by so many people wanting him there and there was SO many fights he wanted before he agreed to come to the UFC but THEY wanted him to have the Lawler fight first (a fight he didn't even want from day one), so why should he always cater to them and everyone else when he wants to go do his thing, he agree'd for that then because it was like "Ok, this isn't a fight I want but I'll do it" and then let him have the fights he wants but no, everyone was like"Run it back" it's selfish, he won the fight completely fair and square and people tried to pull him back and make him do that fight again but why should he, why the fuck should he have to fight what people say he should just for their satisfaction, if they can't accept he beat Lawler fair and square then that's tough shit, let him fight who HE wants to fight for a change considering he took that fight for them in the first place before pushing him into doing another fight again he didn't even want to do in the first place, that is just wrong!

But with that aside, he did say not long after he would fight Lawler again, it was just at the time in the post press conferences he said "No" and that's because he didn't want the fight in the first place, I don't blame him, at least let him have a few fights that he actually wanted to come to the UFC to do before running that one back which he said he will do so that whole him running away from the fight people have said is bullshit, it's really selfish and quite frankly, I don't blame him.

When you said "Maia managed to avoid trouble on the feet long enough to get his hands on Masvidal and outgrapple him" what if Askren avoided Masvidal and out grappled him (likely), we don't even know if he would or wouldn't because we haven't even seen them fight, Askren's fights in the UFC have been that short we don't even have a good enough idea how that is within the UFC competition because we've not even had chance to see it, he's spent a total of 3 minutes and 25 seconds in a UFC octagon (3:20 of those in the Lawler fight), we cannot completely discredit that "yet" when it comes to his UFC competition.

Maia is fighting Askren soon anyway however even if Askren or Maia happen to win that makes NO difference in regards to Askren fighting Masvidal and the chances there as each fight is completely different between the two people no matter how close (or not) their styles are.

Look, I'm no fan of Masvidal or Askren and I don't have any hatred to either of those guys either but when push comes to shove Askren has got just as good of a chance of beating Masvidal AND giving him problems as Masvidal has him if he happens to catch him, that doesn't mean he would absolutely win the fight but he would definitely give Masvidal a fight and I don't think that's unfair to say, at all.

I'm not going to go point by point on that wall of text. I will note a couple of things though:

The win over Lawler was controversial because after 'going out', Lawler was checked on by the ref and gave a thumbs up. If the ref had called it right after Lawler's arm went limp, there would be no controversy. Your opinion does not supercede public opinion. This was a very disputed call, period. If you doubt this, please refer to the post fight poll, fighters' reactions, etc.

The reason I focus on Askren's striking, is because it is such a uniquely awful dimension in his game. So awful that, against a tricky grappler/striker like Masvidal, it would very likely result in him getting caught and finished before his grinding style has a chance to kick into gear. This is like pointing out that Conor's substandard cardio and mediocred TD defense is a big problem going into the fight with Khabib. Conor has excellent striking, a proven chin and other attributes, but against someone like Khabib, all these are overshadowed by these two glaring weaknesses.

As for the 'Robbie couldn't finish Askren - what makes you think Masvidal can' argument: the answer is simple. Anybody can get KOed with the right shot or combination of shots. Ex:

Someone like Askren, who does not see shots coming and freezes up when hit, is even more vulnerable. That aside, Masvidal doesn't have to land a hail mary to win - he is very capable of slowly decimating Askren with an accumulation of shots and finishing him down the stretch or getting the decision.

 

[GSP Rush]

I'm not going to go point by point on that wall of text. I will note a couple of things though:

The win over Lawler was controversial because after 'going out', Lawler was checked on by the ref and gave a thumbs up. If the ref had called it right after Lawler's arm went limp, there would be no controversy. Your opinion does not supercede public opinion. This was a very disputed call, period. If you doubt this, please refer to the post fight poll, fighters' reactions, etc.

The reason I focus on Askren's striking, is because it is such a uniquely awful dimension in his game. So awful that, against a tricky grappler/striker like Masvidal, it would very likely result in him getting caught and finished before his grinding style has a chance to kick into gear. This is like pointing out that Conor's substandard cardio and mediocred TD defense is a big problem going into the fight with Khabib. Conor has excellent striking, a proven chin and other attributes, but against someone like Khabib, all these are overshadowed by these two glaring weaknesses.

As for the 'Robbie couldn't finish Askren - what makes you think Masvidal can' argument: the answer is simple. Anybody can get KOed with the right shot or combination of shots. Ex:

Someone like Askren, who does not see shots coming and freezes up when hit, is even more vulnerable. That aside, Masvidal doesn't have to land a hail mary to win - he is very capable of slowly decimating Askren with an accumulation of shots and finishing him down the stretch or getting the decision.

The Lawler thing goes on and on, I will have to watch the footage back to see exactly when Herb stopped the fight but it was due to the whole dropping his arm and going limp thing the reason why it was stopped, I'm not gonna pretend I remember exactly when Herb stopped it but I'm pretty sure he stopped before Lawler gave the thumbs up as Askren lessened the grip he which is why he gained conscious so fast (which as we all know can and does happen and is not uncommon for people to go out without even realising themselves when it's so fast).

About the stand up Askren thing, I agree with all that completely, can't argue with it, his defence is shaky and minimal at best but I did mention in the last reply things to take on board as opposed to that and this really isn't wrong or far fetched, but yes, Askrens stand up defence after being caught twice like that is terrible and needs to be sorted.

He doesn't even need to be a good striker but he need to be able to avoid and defend to get his attack in, 100%.

But with all that aside, if Askren managed to unleash on Masvidal before Masvidal unleashed on him, there's every possibility Askren could very easily win the fight and vice versa.

Which is pretty much what I'm saying without going into depth like the last response I gave etc.. (I did that because I felt you would appreciate the time etc.. and take on board).

But yeah, you're not wrong about the Askren thing on the defence but the Lawler thing is just a no go, regardless of the ins and outs he lost because at some point in that fight he dropped and as a ref is supposed to do, he stopped the fight, Lawler didn't regain consciousness while Askren was fully squeezing his head off and that dude is strong.

Anyway good post, you actually put effort into that and brought your side very dignified and I appreciate that, so thank you, it's how it should be even when we agree and disagree, it's what makes discussion great and we can all take things on board from each other with perspectives and learn/understand these things all the time I reckon.

But yeah, really good post and I appreciate that so thank you

 

[tehJameson]

Aye dude, not biting, move on.

You already bit kid

 

[JP557CU]

Solid analysis. I feel the wrestling would beat masvidal and askren would be in control. However, at any second masvidal could knock him out! Interesting fight. But now Ben is back of the line and masvidal is fighting for the WTF belt....

I'm not sure Ben would murder him for 25 mins but I do think it would be very different, we have to remember that fight was over so fast we didn't even see a fight so we have no idea how it would go for Masvidal if there was actually a fight that happened.

As I say, all credit to Masvidal there for what he did, don't want to take anything away from him but the chances of doing the same thing again aren't as likely, it should be good.



Definitely, if Masvidal lost he's definitely not above taking that fight so it could be really good and you're right too about the KO with Ben, absolutely.

There wasn't a fight really last time, I doubt that would happen again so fast and we know that Askren can take a beating as we saw this in the Lawler fight, anyone would have been KO'd by that knee for sure.

Askren's stand up game is no doubt shaky and Masvidal is good at this but if he can survive this from Masvidal next time like he did with Lawler, there's no doubt he'd get Masvidal down and he would have problems with that too.



Absolutely, I agree

sis

 

[GSP Rush]

Solid analysis. I feel the wrestling would beat masvidal and askren would be in control. However, at any second masvidal could knock him out! Interesting fight. But now Ben is back of the line and masvidal is fighting for the WTF belt....

sis

Thank you dude and yes, I agree with you completely, it really is a case of who gets who first with these two I reckon

 

[MartinGibson86]

I'd love to see the rematch. I would be betting Askren at the big plus odds. Pretty good matchup for him, really. Masvidal massively overrated at this point.

Ben will be the favorite if they fight again.

 

[JustforBROCK]

Ben will be lucky to to win another fight in the UFC

 

[Guffman]

Ben will be the favorite if they fight again.

If Ben beats Maia, and Masvidal loses to Nate, maybe. Otherwise, I can't see that happening.

 

[boss429]

Before you jump on and give the whole "No Masvidal will KO him again" think about it a little before adding your reply, lets have a nice genuine discussion on this if we can

There's no doubt Masvidal created a game plan that worked, he knocked Ben the fuck out on his own merit, Masvidal smashed him, Ben fucked up and lost, end of.

However if a rematch was to happen would it be the same, we know Askren's stand up game isn't the best but he is elite in other ways and if he happened to deliver his technique I think it's fair to say Masvidal would have some problems and Ben is strong.

Askren's recent tweets got me thinking and although it's easy to write off because of what we saw last time, would we really see that again, probably not and that's not to say Masvidal wouldn't win (he quite possibly would) but I'm sure we'd get a different fight and it wouldn't be so quick like before.





Thoughts, I would love to hear what you guys think

It would definitely be a different fight, Jorge set that trap brilliantly and Ben was expecting an emotional Jorge to come throwing bombs, as he is known for, when he charged him like that right out of the gate.

Ben thought this overly emotional wreck less approach was exactly what he wanted and probably had troll face memes running through his head as he ducked under to snatch what he expected to be his easy prize not realizing Jorge had also planned this same reaction out of Ben and greeted him with a perfect and devastating flying knee.

Ben would never take the bait again and likely gets beat up a bit standing before finding his takedown and returning the favor on the ground with this cycle repeating for the next 15 minutes with either guy winning depending on who can keep the fight where they want it longest.

Could also end with a Jorge KO or Ben sub but never again would it end like it did.

Same story with Conor Aldo and a story we've seen played out before with Cain JDS and Penn Uno

 

[Ronin13]

Masvidal goes left this time and knees him with his left knee instead.

 

[Lost]

I agree. Next time I reckon Ben murders him for 25 mins.

This was supposed to happen, the just bleed gods spared us

 

[maximus__]

Before you jump on and give the whole "No Masvidal will KO him again" think about it a little before adding your reply, lets have a nice genuine discussion on this if we can

There's no doubt Masvidal created a game plan that worked, he knocked Ben the fuck out on his own merit, Masvidal smashed him, Ben fucked up and lost, end of.

However if a rematch was to happen would it be the same, we know Askren's stand up game isn't the best but he is elite in other ways and if he happened to deliver his technique I think it's fair to say Masvidal would have some problems and Ben is strong.

Askren's recent tweets got me thinking and although it's easy to write off because of what we saw last time, would we really see that again, probably not and that's not to say Masvidal wouldn't win (he quite possibly would) but I'm sure we'd get a different fight and it wouldn't be so quick like before.





Thoughts, I would love to hear what you guys think

Given that he wouldn’t fight Lawler again after their controversial match he should probably just shut up about it. The way that fight was looking would have me thinking Lawler would of finished him in the first also.

I just think he isn’t that good and will always be vulnerable to a good blitz due to his lack of striking. I believe he will get caught with another knee diving for a takedown at some point in his career. Masvidal could potentially pull it off later in the fight though.

It was a perfect knee strike, but very unlikely to catch him in the start like that again

 

[MartinGibson86]

I'm not going to go point by point on that wall of text. I will note a couple of things though:

The win over Lawler was controversial because after 'going out', Lawler was checked on by the ref and gave a thumbs up. If the ref had called it right after Lawler's arm went limp, there would be no controversy. Your opinion does not supercede public opinion. This was a very disputed call, period. If you doubt this, please refer to the post fight poll, fighters' reactions, etc.

The reason I focus on Askren's striking, is because it is such a uniquely awful dimension in his game. So awful that, against a tricky grappler/striker like Masvidal, it would very likely result in him getting caught and finished before his grinding style has a chance to kick into gear. This is like pointing out that Conor's substandard cardio and mediocred TD defense is a big problem going into the fight with Khabib. Conor has excellent striking, a proven chin and other attributes, but against someone like Khabib, all these are overshadowed by these two glaring weaknesses.

As for the 'Robbie couldn't finish Askren - what makes you think Masvidal can' argument: the answer is simple. Anybody can get KOed with the right shot or combination of shots. Ex:

Someone like Askren, who does not see shots coming and freezes up when hit, is even more vulnerable. That aside, Masvidal doesn't have to land a hail mary to win - he is very capable of slowly decimating Askren with an accumulation of shots and finishing him down the stretch or getting the decision.

When has Askren ever "froze up" when being hit?

Seriously...when did you see that?

A flying knee and a slam with follow up GnP is literally the only damage he's ever taken.

 

[GSP Rush]

It would definitely be a different fight, Jorge set that trap brilliantly and Ben was expecting an emotional Jorge to come throwing bombs, as he is known for, when he charged him like that right out of the gate.

Ben thought this overly emotional wreck less approach was exactly what he wanted and probably had troll face memes running through his head as he ducked under to snatch what he expected to be his easy prize not realizing Jorge had also planned this same reaction out of Ben and greeted him with a perfect and devastating flying knee.

Ben would never take the bait again and likely gets beat up a bit standing before finding his takedown and returning the favor on the ground with this cycle repeating for the next 15 minutes with either guy winning depending on who can keep the fight where they want it longest.

Could also end with a Jorge KO or Ben sub but never again would it end like it did.

Same story with Conor Aldo and a story we've seen played out before with Cain JDS and Penn Uno

Yeah, felt like a rookie mistake for Ben didn't it going in like that, he shouldn't have done but he seems to have learned from that anyway which is why we should get a very different fight next time, we didn't even get a fight lol

That third paragraph totally nailed it, my sentiments also, it really is who gets who first but he does need to be better with his stand up defence, big time.

Completely agree

Given that he wouldn’t fight Lawler again after their controversial match he should probably just shut up about it. The way that fight was looking would have me thinking Lawler would of finished him in the first also.

I just think he isn’t that good and will always be vulnerable to a good blitz due to his lack of striking. I believe he will get caught with another knee diving for a takedown at some point in his career. Masvidal could potentially pull it off later in the fight though.

It was a perfect knee strike, but very unlikely to catch him in the start like that again

Yeah, only thing is, he actually did say he would fight Lawler (I know a lot of people might not have seen this and are going by the post fight press conference when he said no) but see my reply on page 4 with this video linked which explains.

He said this about a week or so after and the people he was willing to fight including Lawler, I think it was pretty much because he came to the UFC himself and was a bit annoyed when people were saying "Do it again" as there was certain fight he wanted to have while coming here, they nagged him to have the Lawler fight first which he didn't even want in the first place but he gave in and then when people were asking him to run it back it no doubt annoyed him which I can understand cause why should he have to keep doing what people want all the time, though he does say here anyway a week or so after he would fight Lawler so he will eventually if it comes round (time stamped)



I think the same in regards to his stand up defence being the problem, as I say he got caught with the Masvidal knee and he got caught with Lawler and he shouldn't be getting caught like that, if he can work on these things and avoid them to execute his game plan then he's going to be on top of the game cause he does have all the tools to do so but it's just this is something that really needs to be sorted otherwise he's not going to last two minutes in the UFC.

Good post by the way

 

[Do better]

Before you jump on and give the whole "No Masvidal will KO him again" think about it a little before adding your reply, lets have a nice genuine discussion on this if we can

There's no doubt Masvidal created a game plan that worked, he knocked Ben the fuck out on his own merit, Masvidal smashed him, Ben fucked up and lost, end of.

However if a rematch was to happen would it be the same, we know Askren's stand up game isn't the best but he is elite in other ways and if he happened to deliver his technique I think it's fair to say Masvidal would have some problems and Ben is strong.

Askren's recent tweets got me thinking and although it's easy to write off because of what we saw last time, would we really see that again, probably not and that's not to say Masvidal wouldn't win (he quite possibly would) but I'm sure we'd get a different fight and it wouldn't be so quick like before.





Thoughts, I would love to hear what you guys think

Askrens striking is brutal which makes him extremely vulnerable every second the fight stays standing, with that said Masvidal is potentially the most ridiculous hype job ever! Sure he is light years ahead of askren on the feet but the guy was an unsuccessful lightweight and will be embarrassed by WWs top fighters. Who wins a fight featuring an amateur vs a hype job? I'd say both men win as it isn't common for average athletes to get paid like good athletes

 

[GSP Rush]

Askrens striking is brutal which makes him extremely vulnerable every second the fight stays standing, with that said Masvidal is potentially the most ridiculous hype job ever! Sure he is light years ahead of askren on the feet but the guy was an unsuccessful lightweight and will be embarrassed by WWs top fighters. Who wins a fight featuring an amateur vs a hype job? I'd say both men win as it isn't common for average athletes to get paid like good athletes

Yeah, absolutely!

Askren needs to at least have stand up defence and not get caught, he doesn't have to be the best striker or even a good striker as he has his tools which are very good (hence him drafted to the UFC which is rare), only thing I disagree with is the amateur comment but I guess that was just the choice of words thing as he's in no way an amateur, he's elite in his wrestling but just has a shit stand up defence from what we've seen so far and that needs sorting if he wants to progress in the UFC.

That said, we've seen him in the octagon a total of 3:25, 3:20 of them were with Lawler and even though he got caught it can't be denied that he did take that beating, came back and won the fight so that in itself was impressive.

Terrible he got caught like that but impressive he sustained it, came back and won and Masvidal would need to unleash on him also to put him away (unless he gets him with the knee again which would be ridiculous lol).

 

[El Fernas]

Yeah, next time he wont be so dumb and play it (even) safer, 15-25 minutes wrestlefuck.

 

[MartinGibson86]

Askrens striking is brutal which makes him extremely vulnerable every second the fight stays standing, with that said Masvidal is potentially the most ridiculous hype job ever! Sure he is light years ahead of askren on the feet but the guy was an unsuccessful lightweight and will be embarrassed by WWs top fighters. Who wins a fight featuring an amateur vs a hype job? I'd say both men win as it isn't common for average athletes to get paid like good athletes

He's been hit by a flying knee and literally nothing else standing.

 

[Do better]

Yeah, absolutely!

Askren needs to at least have stand up defence and not get caught, he doesn't have to be the best striker or even a good striker as he has his tools which are very good (hence him drafted to the UFC which is rare), only thing I disagree with is the amateur comment but I guess that was just the choice of words thing as he's in no way an amateur, he's elite in his wrestling but just has a shit stand up defence from what we've seen so far and that needs sorting if he wants to progress in the UFC.

That said, we've seen him in the octagon a total of 3:25, 3:20 of them were with Lawler and even though he got caught it can't be denied that he did take that beating, came back and won the fight so that in itself was impressive.

Terrible he got caught like that but impressive he sustained it, came back and won and Masvidal would need to unleash on him also to put him away (unless he gets him with the knee again which would be ridiculous lol).

Amateur may have been a little harsh. His wrestling is top notch, his striking is the worst the UFC has ever had. I'm not sure what that ultimately makes him other than good enough to be a known MMA fighter