IBJJF Rules Ambiguity

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by codemonkey76, Sep 6, 2010.

  1. codemonkey76

    codemonkey76 Black Belt

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    Crotchripper / Banana Split / Electric Chair.

    Are they illegal or legal?

    I have been told by multiple sources that they are illegal. They all either stretch the hamstrings, or the groin / hip joints.

    If they are illegal, please point to where in the rules this would be considered illegal. Their is no mention of groin, hip or hamstring anywhere in the rules.

    http://www.ibjjf.org/RegrasEnglish2006.pdf

    Their is one mention of genitalia, (if you could consider stretching the groin an attack on the genitals... that's a big stretch, pardon the pun)

    But this rule specifically mentions striking the genitalia.
     
  2. Crazy Legs

    Crazy Legs Orange Belt

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  3. J Sho

    J Sho Green Belt

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    There is no ambiguity here, there are just people who don;t know the rules.

    There are some discrepancies between the portuguese and english rule on the CBJJ and IBJJF as well.
     
  4. codemonkey76

    codemonkey76 Black Belt

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    nice, this is exactly what i was looking for!!!!

    I have been using this a lot lately and want to be able to use it in upcoming tournaments
    I will plead my case saying that "According to GracieMag.com, Alvaro Mansur, head referee for the IBJJF, there's nothing in the rules preventing it's use."
     
  5. Joshu

    Joshu Blue Belt

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  6. codemonkey76

    codemonkey76 Black Belt

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    i know, wtf, it's like "i wish i could ban it, but unfortunately we don't have anything in the rules stopping it"
     
  7. Crazy Legs

    Crazy Legs Orange Belt

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    There is a blackbelt I know that caught somebody in it a few years back and blew the guys hip out of socket... he tried it again this year at panams but this guy was way to big (absolute). So it is atleast legal at blackbelt.
     
  8. redaxe

    redaxe Silver Belt

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    Well the rules ban leg locks below brown belt level. Personally I would consider them leg locks. One referee might agree with me, and another might say "no it's not a leg lock it's a hip lock." So it is ambiguous.
     
  9. newerest

    newerest Purple Belt

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    even so, I don't use it as a submission. When I get the electric chair I go immediately for the sweep. When Im in the electric chair I just get stretched out....It sucks but as long as I put my back on the mat my knee is alright. I'll thank them after the match for making me more flexible ;p

    I still wouldn't consider them a "lock", that's kinda of like saying a neck crank is a lock.
     
  10. redaxe

    redaxe Silver Belt

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    It can cause the submission by stretching the muscles or by putting stress on, or even dislocating, the hip joint. It depends on the person and how the hold is applied. But if it's illegal, and you do it, and he taps, you get DQed.

    Just like if you go for a can opener on a guy but you're "not using it as a submission," you're only trying to break his guard open, and he taps, you get DQed. He can actually win the match by tapping, lol.

    But I don't know what % of referees would consider the electric chair a "leglock." Personally I would but that doesn't mean much. But if it looks to the ref like the knee is being attacked, you might get DQ'ed for it as well.
     
  11. newerest

    newerest Purple Belt

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    That's kinda lame because even if I'm not using it to stretch them out I could get DQ'ed.

    This should really be clarified.

    When I'm put in the electric chair and they aren't intending on trying to submit me, (you know, elbows to the mat, gable grip, pull) it's only somewhat uncomfortable. When they try to finish it it's completely different...

    If they ban the use of the electric chair as a sweep, can't they also ban the double under pass? If neck cranks are illegal, the double underpass + stacking will stretch out the neck...

    Not trying to argue, but that's just how I see it
     
  12. redaxe

    redaxe Silver Belt

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    I think that for practical purposes the electric chair is legal though, since the head referee at IBJJF said he can't find anything in the rules that makes it illegal. It sounds like he thinks it should be illegal but forgot to write a rule that specifically bans it.

    You're not going to get DQ'ed for hurting a guy's neck by stacking him. You can get disqualified for a neck crank if you're applying a submission hold, like a can opener, a twister, a crucifix crank, etc--regardless of whether you're "trying" to finish the hold or not.
     
  13. lechien

    lechien Gold Belt

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    One question regading the neck pressure:

    during twister, can uke release the neck pressure by getting sweep?

    during the stacking, can uke release the neck pressure by opening the triangle/armbar attempt or let the guy pass his guard?

    Or is uke just at the mercy of the guy putting the pressure on his neck?
     
  14. fourfif**

    fourfif** Banned Banned

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    I've never used a twister (guillotine!) in bjj, but I've pinned countless squirming wrestlers with it.... and once it's on, you're not getting out. if the far leg is not secure yes, but if it's locked in tight, it's a wrap.
     
  15. fourfif**

    fourfif** Banned Banned

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    I did saw a video of my coach (Denny) subbing someone with a banana split/electric chair in a tourney.

    it was fresh.
     
  16. 350 lbs fist

    350 lbs fist Black Belt

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    I saw a purple get DQ'd for it at last year's Scandinavian. He complained and the head ref reversed the decision and then promptly DQ'd him for protesting too vigorously...
     
  17. redaxe

    redaxe Silver Belt

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    You have an interesting point, but consider this:

    If you are in my closed guard and you reach both hands around the back of my head and pull (can opener), can I relieve the pressure? Sure I can, all I have to do is open my guard and sit up.

    But if I just tap instead, you get DQed for applying an illegal neck crank and I win.

    Or what if I am standing in your open guard and you wrap your leg around mine from the outside (reaping the knee)? I can relieve the pressure by turning and letting you sweep me, but if I cry out in pain or tap or complain to the ref, you are getting disqualified for illegal knee reaping.

    So whether uke can escape or relieve the pressure or not, is not the criteria.

    The criteria is, is it a submission hold or not? A can opener, crucifix, or twister is a submission hold where you are directly applying force to your opponent's neck. Simply stacking your opponent is not a submission hold.
     
  18. newerest

    newerest Purple Belt

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    I have tapped extremely unflexible new people with the double under pass before
     
  19. Kenny from MD

    Kenny from MD Less angry than before.

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    This issue is a really, really annoying one however there is a definitive answer.
    100% legal. There is NOTHING illegal about this move, at any skill level, or belt level and any attempt to claim it is illegal is far reaching. Im glad someone posted the link to the Gracie Mag post, because that should dead the issue and shows definitive proof.

    The issue is that many referees are unfamiliar with the position. Just as when the 50/50 started picking up a lot of popularity some referees got confused and called competitors for reaping the knee. It is often confused as a leg lock, and even more so, if you do it the way as shown in the rubber guard book (lockdown to electric chair) either the referee or the opponent will almost ALWAYS claim it is a leg lock and that it is putting pressure on their knee. That is BULLSHIT and if they try to pull that shit, it is cheating and they are a coward who can
     
  20. newerest

    newerest Purple Belt

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