I wish we could’ve seen Franklin vs Bisping

Discussion in 'UFC Discussion' started by TheSpider, Mar 24, 2020.

  1. Mr Fahrenheit

    Mr Fahrenheit Purple Belt

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    This.

    You don’t really beat Rich by being tough and decently well rounded. Henderson is the only one to beat him that way when Rich was close to his prime, and that’s a split decision against one of the GOATs.

    You basically need to beat him with explosiveness. Anderson obviously got him twice (really have to ask PED questions as well when you see how strong he looked against Rich and Hendo, but whatever). Vitor got him with speed. Machida caught him with a headkick way back in the day.

    Against any tough, solid pro while Rich was near his prime, Rich beat the shit out of him. And he didn’t crack when Silva murked him either, just kept smashing solid ranked opponents.

    Tanner (beat the piss out of twice)
    Quarry (sparked him)
    Shamrock (please)
    Okami
    MacDonald (beat down til the corner stopped it)
    Loiseau (beat down, corner should’ve stopped)
    Hamill (smashed and stopped)
    Lutter (smoked)

    His move to LHW was basically a retirement tour against other legends past their prime; and he still went 3-0 against Chuck and Wanderlei in addition to his losses to Vitor, Hendo and Griffin.

    Oh, and the beginning of his career? Let’s put it this way: his final title defense before Silva was Loiseau, who he smashed to a pulp. That was Franklin’s 24th fight. It was his FIRST decision. 22-1 with one NC, 22 stoppages. Multiple headkicks, armbars and kimuras, and obviously lots of TKOs via punches, including a BUNCH of guys tapping to strikes. Rich was the definition of heavy handed. Didn’t really have dynamite in his hands; but every fight looked like Margarito-Cotto when Margarito had concrete gloves. You couldn’t convince me that he doesn’t have a great chance against Weidman, Rockhold and Whittaker (Adensanya seems like the kind of guy who would have his number, but who knows).

    IMO Franklin is easily in the same tier as guys like Liddell, Hughes, Wanderlei, Big Nog, CroCop, Shogun, etc.

    Peak Franklin is obviously a significant favorite against peak Bisping. They’d both land and Rich hits harder. In the clinch he’s stronger. Has sufficient stamina. Not sure what Bisping’s path to victory is other than a somewhat flukey punch that stuns Franklin (and there’s no evidence at all to suggest that anyone other than the most explosive strikers can hurt him) or catching Rich on an off night, staying on his bike, having the performance of his life and getting a favorable decision.

    Other fights I’d like to see: Lindland, Sonnen, Marquardt, GSP, Jacare.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2020
  2. Mr Fahrenheit

    Mr Fahrenheit Purple Belt

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    Respect your opinion but I would suggest reviewing Rich’s career more closely. He beat the hell out of lots of ranked opponents who can best be described as “solid all around fighters.” He isn’t a one punch knockout artist but he was very heavy handed and beat guys to a pulp if they got into a boxing match against him.
     
  3. pankrat

    pankrat Purple Belt

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    Anderson didnt beat him with explosiveness...but with thai clinch tecnique. Actually he was having problems to place good shots on Franklin in striking range, which reveals once again Rich's solid and underrated striking game.
    That's why Anderson takes the fight to the clinch...

    So you see a suspicious strenght on a guy who was a 170lber just some months before, but you dont see the big lack of clinch prowess in the remarkably strong 205lber??...Look closer, or ask anybody who understand clinch fighting for the numerous mistakes Franklin did in there, regardless of physical strenght.

    Franklin wasn't smashing solid ranked opponents, not by the time the UFC - and particularly its MW division - was the premier organization.
    Okami and Wanderlei are the only truly top10 material opponents he beat after Pride fell. Both competitive fights, far from smashes.
    Okami left the cage without a scracth in the face, after two extremely close uneventful rounds and dominating Franklin in the last round. Okami was the type of tough well-rounded fighter rather than a explosive one btw

    Franklin was a very solid fighter, but he was not really the best even back when he was UFC champion (the top MW contenders were in other organizations, getting way more money than Tanner, Quarry or Loiseau); he wasnt the best MW after Pride fell, and he wouldnt be the best today.

    I think he could hang in top10 rankings even by today standards though. Much respect for Rich but American fans certainly tend to overrate him.
    As for this particularl thread...I would lean to Rich beating Bisping in a competitive decision.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2020
  4. grimballer

    grimballer Gold Belt

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    Wec lhw champ... not that good.

    i get it’s not the same as being ufc champ, but it’s definitely better than “not that good”.

    also gsp was tapping to strikes vs a 5’5 lw manlet n then retired after getting roughed up by a 5’9 ww.

    In both fights gsp had height n significant reach advantage.

    vs Irvin he would have neither.

    it’s not really that complicated. Weight classes exist for that reason. You just don’t seem to have figured out it yet.
     
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  5. listrahtes

    listrahtes Brown Belt

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    More like 10/10 . Rich is just the step Up in competition Bisping could never handle besides the Rockhold win which,sorry to say , was a one time thing.
     
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  6. pankrat

    pankrat Purple Belt

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    Hard to me to take serious a guy that brings the Serra upset, who was easily avenged, as if he is proving any point with that. You know, like the typical Shertards that engage in these typical GSP vs Silva retarded discussions that take place in these boards. You dont bring nothing saying that, kid.

    Weight classes exist for a reason...when the skill level is on par. GSP's skill is in another league compared to Irvin and Sinclaid, who aren't even that big LHWs neither.
    Amar Suloev, a natural WW, gave Chuck Liddel a tougher fight than many big LHWs...and we ar talking about a champion in Liddel, not mediocre Irvin and Sinclaid. Just to bring one example that comes to mind. Are ton of them. Lorenz Larkin started with a solid run at LHW...is now a WW. He could take some time, bulk up, show up at LHW again, and be a solid LHW opponent, at least in the level of Irvins and Sinclaids. Ton of examples.

    Im done in this discussion though. If you favour Irvin and Sinclaid over GSP, cool.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2020
  7. Mr Fahrenheit

    Mr Fahrenheit Purple Belt

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    Sorry, but this is a terrible take.

    The Silva who showed up against Bisping was a shell of the alpha Silva who Rich and Hendo ran into. Silva looked much weaker physically and wasn’t consistently aggressive by the time the UFC gave Bisping a shot.* When Anderson did decide to throw he still busted Bisping up, but that wasn’t even the same person who dominated the division 5+ years earlier.

    It was a great night for Bisping because he’d had a long successful career but zero notable wins. Who was his best win prior to Anderson? The split decision over Thales Leites the fight before? Denis Kang? The hometown cooking against Matt Hamill?

    Let’s face it - the Rockhold punch changed the entire narrative of his career in one moment. Prior to that moment and after that moment he was one of the sport’s all time great gatekeepers. He put in a B+ performance every single round of every single fight. If you were a top 6-7 fighter that night (Kennedy, Evans, Henderson I, Belfort, Sonnen, Rockhold I) you beat him. If you were a top 15 fighter that night (Hamill, Leites, Wanderlei, Anderson, Henderson II) it was very competitive and you had to perform really well bell-to-bell to win. If you were unranked he cruised.

    (Using Cung Le as a comp is even worse. It’s the last fight of Franklin’s career. That’s like saying everyone who goes on to defeat Kelvin is >> Bisping since Kelvin lit him on fire with the greatest of ease. Silly.)

    * it should tell you something that Bisping didn’t face Anderson until 2016. Anderson had been with the company for a decade by then and had cleaned out middleweight so badly that they’d sent him up to LHW a handful of times, even though they had a future HOFer who can hype a fight sitting right there in his division. They never even considered that fight when Anderson was near his prime though, because every single time Bisping got a little momentum they gave him a big fight and he got beat. If he had beaten Hendo.....or Vitor.....or Chael......or Wanderlei..... Anderson would have put him on a poster.
     
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  8. Mr Fahrenheit

    Mr Fahrenheit Purple Belt

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    It’s really simple - if a guy ranked as a top ten middleweight is considered underrated by some people, those people probably think he’s more like a top 3-4 middleweight.

    Underrated doesn’t mean people think he sucks.
     
  9. Mr Fahrenheit

    Mr Fahrenheit Purple Belt

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    We can quibble over my characterizations of “smashing” versus “beating cleanly”, or whether or not Anderson is an explosive athlete, if you want to waste the rest of the morning on something unimportant.

    But the core of the discussion here is Rich vs Bisping. And any criticism that you may have of Rich IMO also has to be leveled as Bisping. If Rich wasn’t smashing opponents, neither way Bisping. If Rich wasn’t defeating top level opponents, neither was Bisping. If you want to speculate that maybe Rich loses to Evans and Kennedy and Sonnen too, you can do that, and it’s possible that you’re right (just like it’s possible that I’m right that Franklin wouldn’t have to eek out a split decision against Leites). But we KNOW Bisping lost to those guys.

    I think Franklin was underrated, but to the extent that I’m wrong it’s because guys like Romero, Jacare, Weidman, Rockhold and Whittaker are better than I think, not because Bisping is. Bisping simply doesn’t have any big wins other than landing the punch of his life against Luke, and his prime is littered with losses literally every other time he stepped up in competition.
     
  10. grimballer

    grimballer Gold Belt

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    Again nobody’s saying Loiseau was as good career wise, but at their peaks they were definitely comparable.

    At his peak Loiseau was ko ppl let n right

    while bisping at his peak was winning hometown decision, beating fighters way past their primes (in fights he looked like he was in serious car accidents) n pulled a Matt Serra n beat a much better opponent (who already beat him with ease n didn’t take him seriously in the rematch). In other words he was same his entire career, but just got lucky at the very end n win the title.

    that’s funny coming from a guy drinking ufc cool aid about a British fighter who’s a career gatekeeper n with couple of gift decisions n a lucky break became a champ n then avoided all top mw contenders.

    If bisping was Jimmy Jones from Nebraska he would’ve been outside of ufc long time ago, but him being a Brit kept him around.

    now credit where credit due, he did bounce back over n over after tough losses n made best outta his opportunities n became the champ, however the only reason he had that many opportunities is cause he’s a Brit n ufc was always behind him. If he was American or Brazilian he would’ve been relegated to prelims long time go or would’ve been in bellator.


    yeah you’re so “woke” we’re lucky to have you around!

    what’s funny about “woke” folk is usually they tend to be the complete tools themselves.

    now how did ufc protect Franklin again?

    He beat the champ who was top mw at that time.

    he beat tuf participant quarry (not his fault most of top tuf mw ufc was trying to push ended up as ww)

    n then he face n beat Loiseau who was on a 5 fight win streak, 3 in ufc (all 3 by tko, including the former champ).

    then he faced new comer Silva who destroyed a prospect in leben in under a minute.

    hows that comparable to what ufc did with bisping?

    they always gave him fights in uk n pretty much guaranteed decision wins, then they gave him a title shot after beating way past his prime Anderson (in a fight he actually got ko but the ref didn’t call it) n then when he won the title they shielded him from top mw contenders n gave way way past his prime hendo (another fight he arguably lost) n then ww in gsp coming back after 4 year lay off.

    So yeah, you could say Franklin didn’t face top mw at that time, but to pretend he was protected by ufc, while ignoring ufc protecting bisping is a joke.
     
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  11. Mr Fahrenheit

    Mr Fahrenheit Purple Belt

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    I think that’s fair, although I do think that Bisping probably lands more if they have a straight boxing match wearing boxing gloves for fifteen minutes.

    The biggest thing Rich has going for him in the matchup IMO is that he hits harder and Bisping has a tendency to get busted up.

    Even though it was too early in his career to hold against Bisping for purposes of this comparison, I think the Hamill fight could be instructive here. Bisping was landing, but Hamill’s shots had more thud on them and were knocking Mike around (we saw this is other fights as well). Much like Hamill, I would expect Rich to be visibly the heavier handed guy if he fought Mike.

    Someone mentioned the Parillo-trained version of Bisping, and I agree that that’s the version that would have the best shot. If we took each fighter’s 7 year prime or so and randomly selected a point in that timeline for each guy, I would favor Rich more than I do if it’s truly the best day of each fighter’s career. Bisping seemed to take shots a bit better at his absolute peak and also sat down on his own punches a little better. Unclear to me if he would land hard enough counters to keep Franklin honest, but I think that would be key.
     
  12. grimballer

    grimballer Gold Belt

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    says the guy who called a fighter who fought most of his career at lhw n hw (n that one time he tried to make mw looked like he’s dying from aids) a “mw”...

    youre clearly very objective!

    again if weight difference wasn’t that much of a issue, nobody would cut weight or they wouldn’t cut as much.

    so again if 5’5 lw with no ko was able to make gsp tap to strikes, you actually think a 6’2 guy who fought as hw couldn’t?

    i mean it would’ve been an easy thing to test, but it’s obvious someone wasn’t at all interested in testing that n decided to fight 2 weight classes below “mw” fighters weight.

    could gsp best Irvin? Sure

    could Irvin stiffen gsp? Absolutely
     
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  13. Mr Fahrenheit

    Mr Fahrenheit Purple Belt

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    Agree with this. I favor Rich in the matchup but neither guy is a wrestler. They’re both standup fighters who successfully learned enough wrestling to prevent all but the top grapplers from taking them down, and generally surviving and getting back up if they did get taken down.

    It would have been interesting to see how Rich fared against peak Chael or Kennedy. But for this hypothetical matchup I don’t think wrestling matters.

    I do think Rich had good core strength, very solid BJJ and heavy ground and pound, so in the event that Bisping gets dropped or otherwise winds up on the ground I can see Rich doing some good work there. But neither guy is shooting for a takedown (other than the panic variety) and I wouldn’t expect either guy to succeed if he did shoot.

    To me the style of the fight would be fairly predictable: Franklin walking him down, Bisping looking to stick and move. If Rich is a step behind Bisping can stay on his bike and win. If Rich can force Bisping to eat 1-2 to land 2-3, I think the damage will accrue and Bisping will have a tough time surviving five rounds without getting busted up pretty badly. Fun fight which can go either way. I would bet on Rich under -200.
     
  14. dildos

    dildos Steel Belt

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    bisping would have killed franklin.
     
  15. chinarice

    chinarice Gold Belt

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    You have to understand the context of who I am responding to, to understand my response. I am responding to a troll, using troll logic.

    You don't see what this guy is doing? I see it a mile away. It's obvious as hell.
     
  16. grimballer

    grimballer Gold Belt

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    Hamill n wand fights are good examples to why Franklin was just a superior fighter.

    Of course there’s was Cung le fight too, but that’s pretty much at the end of rich career n he got caught. Also that was worse type of stylistic matchup for Franklin = good striker with power n wrestling background.

    however in Hamill n wand fights it was obvious that Franklin is a much more complete as a fighter. He was pretty much in control entire time, while bisping could never really take control.
     
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  17. chinarice

    chinarice Gold Belt

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    Dude, he's a troll. He gets responded to accordingly. You think he really wants to know who is better between Ace and Bisping?

    No, it all boils down to he wants to say "Silva > GSP" and he's using these 2 as his little mask behind it all.

    I'm not an idiot. I clearly see this guy doing it in every thread he makes.

    I am sure you're a Silva fan though so you don't care that he's just a Silva troll.
     
  18. rushbeg

    rushbeg Green Belt

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    So you forgot about Rich getting destroyed by Silva 2x while Bispimg whooped Silva steroidhead’s ass?
     
  19. MCS

    MCS Gold Belt

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    It would stay on the feet and would likely go the distance. Bisping had more speed, but Franklin had better overall striking and more power. Kinda weird striking style with the long hooks, open to Mike's straights through the middle, while Bisping wasn't known for defense. Bisping would land more while Franklin would land harder. Under current rules the harder shots count more, but I think it would've been close either way.
     
  20. grimballer

    grimballer Gold Belt

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    [​IMG]

    this is what post leg injury/past his prime Silva did to bisping

    could you imagine what prime Silva would’ve done to him?

    Mma would’ve been banned if that fight ever took place.

    Bisping would’ve been on life support
     
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